DIY installation of Sunamp

[DamonHD]

In my installation I have a myenegi eddi.

 

https://myenergi.com/product/eddi/

 

Rgds

 

Damon

 

[Nickfromwales]

35 minutes ago, lakelandfolk said:

Hi Nick,

We have decided, following the various SA experiences and comments from other forum members, to get a quote for a suitable 250L UVC from a highly recommended, G3 certified engineer who lives in our small community.

https://www.heatershop.co.uk/solar-iboost-solar-immersion-controller  is this the kind of control unit that you hinted at in your earlier posting?

The My Energy Eddi was specifically re-designed to work around the SA cold-start feature, where the heater element would initially pulse heat until it was up to a certain temp threshold to avoid damaging the PCM immediately surrounding the element, ( or nuisance tripping the manual overheat stat which was a popular repeat issue ). Once up to a certain temp the heating element would then latch for full uninterrupted charging. If a regular diversion controller was used, it just kept on switching off every time the heater stopped for each pulse as it assumed the heater was up to temp and no longer required input. I do not know if the cold start "feature" is still employed.

 

SA always recommended the Eddi and it is a very good bit of kit. Nice comprehensive display, and once set up it's quite user-friendly. Recommended by many on here afaik.

 

If you go for an UVC you could opt for a cheaper, dumber diversion controller, but some don't have the display / don't give much feedback. Choose which is best suited to how much feedback you'd like. I would deffo go dual immersion, with one set to max and receiving excess / diverted energy and the other on a basic timer so you have the option to 'over-charge' the UVC. Set the timer to heat ( selectively ) from the grid, storing only the minimum acceptable amount of DHW you need each day, and leave the deficit to be treated as a thermal battery accepting any excess. As stated, without seeing numbers, it's difficult to say if that would work immaculately, but you can get very close to 100% self-consumption with some thought ( and better understanding of your options ), but you don't want to end up like a steam locomotive driver, constantly twisting knobs and pulling levers to keep things in check. 

 

Keep asking questions!  

[PeterW]

1 hour ago, lakelandfolk said:

get a quote for a suitable 250L UVC from a highly recommended, G3 certified engineer who lives in our small community.

See if he will do fit only as Cylinders2Go pricing (especially with the forum mentioned as @Nickfromwales said) is hard to beat. And it’s next day delivery plus they will customise the tank inlet to your requirements so it can be left or right of the immersions etc. A lot of the off the shelf ones don’t do that. 

[Nickfromwales]

28 minutes ago, PeterW said:

See if he will do fit only as Cylinders2Go pricing (especially with the forum mentioned as @Nickfromwales said) is hard to beat. And it’s next day delivery plus they will customise the tank inlet to your requirements so it can be left or right of the immersions etc. A lot of the off the shelf ones don’t do that. 

Yup. Very handy when fitting in awkward spaces as the plumbing can be 'all front'. Remember to have sufficient space to get an immersion box spanner in and to be able to draw the full length of the immersion out for replacement. A 1hr job start to finish with an UVC, but a de-plumb / de-wire and palletised return-to-base for the entire unit with SA / thermino if their immersion fails.

Edited March 13, 2022 by Nickfromwales

[lakelandfolk]

Again, amazingly helpful info. I will certainly ask the engineer if he will do labour only. The standard off the shelf cylinders shown on the cylinder2go site would be OK. We would need pipework to the left, immersions to the front and we have space above for the expansion vessel.

I am correct in saying it is illegal to install a direct UVC without the appropriate G3 certificate? 

[joe90]

22 minutes ago, lakelandfolk said:

I am correct in saying it is illegal to install a direct UVC without the appropriate G3 certificate? 

I installed my own and got a local plumber to sign it off, BC didn’t even ask for it when they signed the house off 🤷‍♂️

[lakelandfolk]

That's interesting, after all a direct UVC set up is pretty basic and he labour element saved  would pay for a Myenergy Eddi

[Nickfromwales]

39 minutes ago, lakelandfolk said:

That's interesting, after all a direct UVC set up is pretty basic and he labour element saved  would pay for a Myenergy Eddi

We can talk you through it tbh. Have you tools and previous plumbing experience?

[lakelandfolk]

Yes Nick, indeed I have. In fact I have installed quite a few UVC's in the past but not since 2010 when the G3 certification was introduced. I was close to retirement at that time and decided not to undertake the courses required to get a ticket. Instead I spent my remaining working years installing kitchens and bathrooms as a subby for a local improvement store. I still have my tools and quite a few fittings etc so feel confident I could complete the work correctly and safely, albeit somewhat slower these days.  We can create a space in the plant room circa 700 wide x 630deep and 2400 high so a standard 250L cylinder + pipe work,fittings, expansion vessel etc should fit OK. I have seen on line Gledhill 1603 high x 530 @ £410 and Telford 1330 high x 554 @ £540. Can you suggest/recommend a cylinder that you would normally to supply to your customers? I would of course welcome any up to date tips, suggestions etc you might think appropriate

Regards, Ian

[ToughButterCup]

12 hours ago, PeterW said:

...

They really have decided that the market is ripe for abuse innovative products that can be upsold… 

 

In our case, one installer behaved atrociously. We talked to SunAmp about the problem.  To show good faith on their part, SunAmp agreed to provide a higher specification installation more cheaply than the original installer was going to charge for a smaller system.  

That installer was dropped from the official installer list.  And looking at the list linked to above, is still not allowed to install. 

Edited March 13, 2022 by ToughButterCup

[Nickfromwales]

2 hours ago, lakelandfolk said:

Yes Nick, indeed I have. In fact I have installed quite a few UVC's in the past but not since 2010 when the G3 certification was introduced. I was close to retirement at that time and decided not to undertake the courses required to get a ticket. Instead I spent my remaining working years installing kitchens and bathrooms as a subby for a local improvement store. I still have my tools and quite a few fittings etc so feel confident I could complete the work correctly and safely, albeit somewhat slower these days.  We can create a space in the plant room circa 700 wide x 630deep and 2400 high so a standard 250L cylinder + pipe work,fittings, expansion vessel etc should fit OK. I have seen on line Gledhill 1603 high x 530 @ £410 and Telford 1330 high x 554 @ £540. Can you suggest/recommend a cylinder that you would normally to supply to your customers? I would of course welcome any up to date tips, suggestions etc you might think appropriate

Regards, Ian

IIRC @PeterW uses Gledhill a lot, but I've used Telford for as long as I can remember. 

[PeterW]

7 minutes ago, ToughButterCup said:

…the official installer list…

I wouldn’t use that list as a good set of references tbh as there is one on there that used to do solar panels till the ar$E fell out of the market so I doubt he knows one end of a spanner from the other, and another that was chucked off the Gas Safe Register for dangerous installations. 
 

I did check though and Sunamp can’t sell through a distributor to an end customer and not abide by consumer law - they are duty bound to honour a minimum 12 month warranty, and given they have their installation on YouTube showing “how easy it is” then they would have a hard time justifying to a court that it was a skilled job. 
 

Sorry but any supplier that tries the “must use our installers” crap usually gets binned off our lists. 

[PeterW]

Just now, Nickfromwales said:

IIRC @PeterW uses Gledhill a lot, but I've used Telford for as long as I can remember. 

Nope I use Newark Copper as they are up the road and now Telford since I’ve had Trevor on speed dial ..! 🤣

[Nickfromwales]

8 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Nope I use Newark Copper as they are up the road and now Telford since I’ve had Trevor on speed dial ..! 🤣

Sorry, my mistake! Yup. Trevor has never let me down. @lakelandfolk, Did you get the price off the website? You will do better if you contact him directly and see what he can do for you. Just mention my username and the forum and he should look after you. 

[ToughButterCup]

9 hours ago, PeterW said:

.... 

Sorry but any supplier that tries the “must use our installers” crap usually gets binned off our lists. 

More testament to the need to go through a thorough and detailed Due Diligence process for every single recommendation no matter who recommends an installer.

[PeterW]

39 minutes ago, ToughButterCup said:

More testament to the need to go through a thorough and detailed Due Diligence process for every single recommendation no matter who recommends an installer.

 

Sorry what’s that got to do with the subject ..?? My point is that a supplier that insists on keeping a closed installer list to maintain warranty on a borderline consumer item is basically profiteering - nothing to do with due diligence or anything else. 

[ToughButterCup]

In your opinion .... 

And in mine, any supplier can trade on rules that they choose. If an installer chooses to step outside those rules, then that's up to the installer. Hence the added need for the buyer to go through Due Diligence. 

 

One question any buyer should ask , "Are you on the list of Approved Installers?"

And then, perhaps, to ask of the installer - if relevant - why not.

 

It is for the buyer to weigh the evidence.  

Edited March 14, 2022 by ToughButterCup

[PeterW]

18 minutes ago, ToughButterCup said:

In your opinion .... 

And in mine, any supplier can trade on rules that they choose.

No actually I said under consumer law.. which again is what the point is. You cannot sell a product to a consumer in the UK directly and insist on using a specific installer to gain a minimum warranty - this was the whole point about block exemption on products and services when it was introduced. 
 

Given the significant number of product suppliers out there that do not have - or need - approved installers, the product in question here (Sunamp) is really running down toward a closed market and it’s benefits case for what was the original market opportunity is seriously diminishing - the original marketing said it could be installed by any plumber with no G3 requirement due to its simplicity, yet now they say to get a warranty you need to use an “approved installer”…? For 2 pipes and a 3 core cable ..???

 

Its also worth noting that some manufacturers use “registered installers” as geographic control on markets and you find they have segmented the UK into delivery zones - I pity they likes of @ProDave and others north of the border as they get either one choice or no choice of supplier as the manufacturer thinks Scotland as a region is reasonable ..!!

As I said previously, any specifications I’ve done have client end usage and also maintainability taken into consideration - being held to ransom by an installer network for even basic maintenance is not necessary and counter productive for a product that is core to the main DHW service of a property. 

 

[Nickfromwales]

9 hours ago, PeterW said:

I wouldn’t use that list as a good set of references tbh as there is one on there that used to do solar panels till the ar$E fell out of the market so I doubt he knows one end of a spanner from the other, and another that was chucked off the Gas Safe Register for dangerous installations. 

A bit like check * trade and others, where some sites even allow negative reviews to be removed and often places where bogus positive reviews can get added by friends and family etc, or even by the person / company themselves!! Pure revenue earners afaic.

 

If your workmanship speaks for you that's often enough to keep you busy anyways.

 

For completeness, I have never been on ANY company's "approved installer" list, ever, as I'm usually doing them a favour not the other way around......

 

Back in the day, when JSH and others installed their own Sunamp units and the sale team was ~2 blokes, SA didn't actually even have an approved installer list.

[ToughButterCup]

2 hours ago, PeterW said:

... You cannot sell a product to a consumer in the UK directly and insist on using a specific installer to gain a minimum warranty 

 

Correct. (For us)  SunAmp didn't offer a minimum warranty. The warranty they offer can be accessed here

The warranty they give is 2 years, (i.e. 1 year) and 10 years for components, that refers to the phase change material and other bits (from memory) provided its installed by what they call a 'competent person'.

 

Since the relevant competence isn't defined by SunAmp, in doing Due Diligence,  it'd be unwise not at least to consider employing someone who - in the eyes of the company -   is a qualified and competent person.

Edited March 14, 2022 by ToughButterCup

[PeterW]

39 minutes ago, ToughButterCup said:

[13/08/2022]
Warranty only valid if fitted by a qualified company 

 

SunAmp didn't offer a minimum warranty….

 

… provided its installed by what they call a 'competent person'.

So you said that Sunamp won’t warranty unless it is installed by a registered installer ..? But now it’s competent person.??

 

A competent persons scheme ..?? Or someone who can prove competence ..??

 

All of these are different and tbh it gives me (and probably any rational person reading this) less and less impetus to actually use Sunamp as a product as they can’t even define their own terms or decide what is actually warranted. 
 

 

 

 

[dpmiller]

I can't C&P from the warranty document but what is *actually* says is

 

"the Product has been installed by a competent person who is suitably qualified to carry out plumbing and electrical work"

[ToughButterCup]

Quite  @dpmiller . Which leaves the term 'competent person '  open to interpretation.  It seems to me to be laziness on SunAmp's part not to define what they think competence is. It is merely implicit, then, that SunAmp may regard an installer having completed SunAmp's  training  as competent.  

 

1 hour ago, PeterW said:

 

...

All of these are different and tbh it gives me (and probably any rational person reading this) less and less impetus to actually use Sunamp as a product as they can’t even define their own terms or decide what is actually warranted. 
...

 

SunAmp appears to me to trade within the law and the terms that they set themselves.  SunAmp may or may not produce  good products. But their inability to use language carefully doesn't necessarily reflect  the quality  of their products. More likely a hastily, unchecked set of terms and conditions : copied and pasted perhaps? Or an under-resourced legal department ? 

[Nickfromwales]

1 hour ago, dpmiller said:

I can't C&P from the warranty document but what is *actually* says is

 

"the Product has been installed by a competent person who is suitably qualified to carry out plumbing and electrical work"

Yet they wont sell directly to the public, so completely academic. Only approved installers can by these units. Ergo the warranty criteria is then down to those who have made it onto their "approved installer" list and whether they tick that box or not. Or even worse, the employees under the one representative that scraped through the 1-2 day SA training camp to gain the companies accreditation.

 

In 4 years of being around them they were still coming out of infancy, and evolving ( aka learning by trial and error ), so it's a bit difficult to fathom how someone who's been on a 1-2 day course can walk away fully trained in the selection, sizing, design and correct implementation of such a device. It took me months, and umpteen long and detailed phone calls with SA technical staff to become fluent.

 

Installing one is a couple of pipes and an expansion vessel, that's the easy part............

[PeterW]

4 hours ago, ToughButterCup said:

Which leaves the term 'competent person '  open to interpretation.

Its actually well defined. There are a number of “Competent Persons” schemes in the UK (think Gas Safe Register, NICEIC etc) but oddly that has to be capitalized and usually states a member of a “Competent Persons Scheme”. Poor legal drafting is not an excuse for a supplier trying to not honour warranty provisions.
 

3 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

Yet they wont sell directly to the public, so completely academic.

No but you can pick one up via Wolesley without an account and they are available online … so they are selling direct via distribution which is what everyone else does.