Green Belt - Is garden PDL?

[Ridgewood]

Hi all

 

New to here and to the world of planning permission, so please bear with me!
 

We are currently buying a house in the Green belt.  The house is the original farmhouse and forms part of a courtyard style mews with two further dwellings, which were converted from the old stabling and outbuildings of the farmhouse back in 2002.
 

The properties are surrounded on all sides by fields, which are mainly used for horses, stabling and grazing.  They are reached by a long shared access private road, which crosses the open fields from the main highway. The farm house itself is then entered through a private gravel driveway, which leads to a single brick build garage, roughly in the middle of a large private garden area.

 

We would like to take down the single garage and replace it (in a slightly different place) with a steel framed double sized outbuilding approximately 6m x 7m x max 3m eaves with a 10degree pitched roof.  The outbuilding will be largely hidden by existing shrubs and trees in the garden, as well as the natural hedgerow, which forms the boundary around the garden and sits a good 2m+ high. The steel outbuilding will be lower in overall height than the current garage, which is your usual permitted development size of 2.5m eaves, 4m pitch.

 

Am I right in saying that this area/garden is classed as Previously Developed Land, so we should be ok? Or, does it still have to follow the rules for ‘appropriate’ and ‘inappropriate’ Green belt development??

 

What do you think the challenges might be from the planning authority? (We have tried to get pre-planning advice, but it remains ‘suspended due to unprecedented demand’ following Covid!!), which is not very helpful!
 

We’re just not sure if we’re going to run into problems by, for example, requesting to take one structure down and replace it with something bigger, etc? Or will that not apply? Also, does the question of ‘openness’ still apply if PDL? And if so, do you think it can be deemed as impacting on openness simply for being a larger structure (even though it will be lower in stature and more screened than the existing garage, due to the area we would like to put it in)?

 

Any thoughts, tips on what to say and ‘not say’ in the planning application or general advice and information would be greatly appreciated!

 

Thanks

[gravelrash]

Check the planning permission from when the outbuildings were converted....most councils remove all PD rights for the whole development. This leaves you requiring PP for anything you may wish to do. The openness argument really falls flat in an enclosed garden area.... even in greenbelt.

[Ridgewood]

Thanks for your reply gravelrash. Still trying to get hold of the original plans and planning permission documents. I’m not sure if I’ve got confused or misunderstood your reply, but I was referring to a rural garden (ie a residential garden not in a built up area) being classed as Previously Developed Land (PDL/brownfield land) Is that what you were referring to, or were you referring to permitted development rights potentially being removed at the time of original planning and development?

[Johnnyt]

Irrespective of whether greenfield or brownfield. 
In the green belt development must be “not inappropriate” and fall into one of the exceptions in para 149 and 150 of the NPPF.

Unless of course it can be established that very special circumstances apply.

There is no legal definition of “very special circumstances” but plenty of case law.

 

[Temp]

To check if you have Permitted Development Rights you need to look at the previous planning grants and check with the planners to see if the whole area is subject to an "Article 4 direction" that removes them.

 

Green Belt isn't Article 2(3) land so if they haven't been removed i think you just follow the Technical Guide sections on outbuildings. 

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/permitted-development-rights-for-householders-technical-guidance

 

With farmhouses its not always obvious what is "garden" and what is "agricultural" land. If the garage isnt obviously in the garden then there might be an issue. 

[Ridgewood]

Thank you for replies…..

 

No Article 4 direction 

 

I would say the garage is obviously in the garden. It can only be reached by entering the site through a private wooden gate which leads exclusively to the garage, gardens and house along a gravel driveway (ie no shared access or public right of way).

The whole area (as identified on the title plan) is completely enclosed by a 2m+ hedge on 3 sides and a picket fence on a small section of the remaining boundary at the point where it shares a boundary in the courtyard area with the neighbouring property.

 

[Bramco]

12 hours ago, Temp said:

With farmhouses its not always obvious what is "garden" and what is "agricultural" land. If the garage isnt obviously in the garden then there might be an issue. 

 

'Garden' is a loose term. 'Curtilage' might be a better term to use.

 

We have an acre plot but the actual curtilage is what was highlighted by the red line on the planning application - which is often, especially in cases like ours made smaller than the actual owned land to reduce the cost of any planning application.  We'd say our garden though is all the red line plus the land to both the front and back of the plot, which I don't think would wash with the PD section on outbuildings.

 

A neighbour recently had planning refused for a PD development of a garage which was in the obvious place to put it but it fell partly outside the curtilage in the green belt - he reapplied and called it an agricultural shed and the plan was approved.   So also take care with the description of what you are intending to do.

 

Simon

[Ridgewood]

Still awaiting information on whether or not PD rights were removed at the time of the original planning application approval….so the ‘what if’s’ and uncertainty continue to buzz around my head 😩

Does anybody have any experience of this situation (particularly in the green belt)…what do people do when they have no PD rights AND then they are turned down for planning (in this case for a double sized garage/outbuilding), meaning you basically ending up with a lovely big house, with a lovely big enclosed garden (curtilage) but then not being able to sufficiently store things away or enjoy any kind of tinkering/ hobbies in an outbuilding?!

[ProDave]

Appeal?

[IanR]

Was the farmhouse extended or altered when the stables were converted, or the curtilage extended into what was an agricultural use area? If not, it will be unaffected by the planning permission that that the conversion was done under.

 

Under normal circumstance the fact that the farmhouse is in greenbelt would not effect the PD for its established residential curtilage.

 

48 minutes ago, Ridgewood said:

what do people do when they have no PD rights AND then they are turned down for planning (in this case for a double sized garage/outbuilding), meaning you basically ending up with a lovely big house, with a lovely big enclosed garden (curtilage) but then not being able to sufficiently store things away or enjoy any kind of tinkering/ hobbies in an outbuilding?!

 

Before buying any property, if you need to alter it makes sure the planning situation is favourable to do so.

[Ridgewood]

Thank you, that’s really helpful IanR. The only thing we can see that was done to the farmhouse was the addition of a porch and the erection of a single garage in the farmhouse curtilage (which we want to take down as it’s far too small for our needs). This was because the main entrance to the farmhouse was moved to the back garden to allow the front courtyard to be divided up for the two new dwellings made from the barns.  Historic Google earth (and the title plan) show that the original curtilage was extended/added to at the time of planning to make a larger enclosed garden area for the farmhouse. I understand there may be some dispute that all of the enclosed land could be classed as curtilage, but the area we want to erect the double garage in, definitely is in the original curtilage, again, as shown on both Google earth and the title plan.

 

And, yes, we are making sure things are sorted before buying…it was just while waiting we wanted to throw a hypothetical question out there for thoughts and opinions on here, which are really helpful.

[Onoff]

1 hour ago, Ridgewood said:

Still awaiting information on whether or not PD rights were removed at the time of the original planning application approval….so the ‘what if’s’ and uncertainty continue to buzz around my head 😩

Does anybody have any experience of this situation (particularly in the green belt)…what do people do when they have no PD rights AND then they are turned down for planning (in this case for a double sized garage/outbuilding), meaning you basically ending up with a lovely big house, with a lovely big enclosed garden (curtilage) but then not being able to sufficiently store things away or enjoy any kind of tinkering/ hobbies in an outbuilding?!

 

Go underground?