Problematic flat roof?

[BobAJob]

A couple of years ago we had our EPDM covered flat roof recovered as the previous installer hadn't glued it to the roof. 

 

Today I had a fascia board on the roof replaced and the fascia board installer remarked that the roof wasn't the best. 

 

I'm no roofing expert, so I wondering if someone can tell me if this cross-section of the roof looks correct?

 

To me it looks like nothing is supporting the wood spanning the roof so it's effectively floating in the air, which doesn't sound right to me. 

[BobAJob]

Can anyone help me with this, please?

 

There are bits of wood running across the roof with yellow insulation boards in between, but the bits of wood running across the roof don't land on a piece of wood on the window/wall side and are just floating there. 

 

I think I might need to get the entire thing replaced in the summer.  The roofer who did the new rubber roof on it didn't mention any problems with it. It was originally installed by previous owners about 10 years ago.  I want it safe, water tight and well finished. 

 

It's about 6m x 2m.

 

How much would that cost?

 

Thanks

[Dave Jones]

you have a cold roof, this means you need copious ventilation to keep it dry.

 

Much better would be a warm roof.

[Gordo]

Yeah that all looks like a bit of a bodge job. Wall plate on outer brick leaf vulnerable to decay and No obvious lintel / beam over window to support flat roof joists. Window is doing a fine job of support tho lol. Joking aside it’s Not going to straight forward job to sort that out properly as there is so little depth to work with. Likely a heavy angle iron or channel section (consult a structural engineer) And as Dave said the ventilation is also a problem. Warm deck advice is sound under new weather proofing layer.

Edited January 24, 2022 by Gordo

[BobAJob]

How do you find a structural engineer?

 

Do I need a surveyor to examine it and advise? Lots of £££

 

I think I might get the whole thing ripped off and start again. I think it might cost around £12k to get it done right.  I don't mind paying. It's finding a decent tradesman round me is almost impossible.  They all just want to get the job done quickly not correctly and onto the next job. Then you end up paying multiple times when you could have just paid once to get it done right.  It's a disgrace. 

[Simplysimon]

is the whole roof flat? looking at chimney if yours and it's a pitch roof with extension i suppose there isn't much chance of increasing run. the other option would be to re-roof from ridge to gain extra height.

[BobAJob]

2 minutes ago, Simplysimon said:

is the whole roof flat? looking at chimney if yours and it's a pitch roof with extension i suppose there isn't much chance of increasing run. the other option would be to re-roof from ridge to gain extra height.

It's a smallish conservatory extension to back of a house. Rest of the house is a pitch roof with concrete roof tiles from the 1980s.  The pitch roof runs down to the flat roof on the conservatory, so about 40% of the main pitched roof feeds to this flat roof extension. A previous owner did the changes as it used to have a polycarbonate roof when originally built about 20 years ago according to the paperwork for the house (previous owner who did it was a builder). 

 

[Gus Potter]

1 minute ago, Simplysimon said:

is the whole roof flat? looking at chimney if yours and it's a pitch roof with extension i suppose there isn't much chance of increasing run. the other option would be to re-roof from ridge to gain extra height.

Looks like the main house may be a lowish pitch roof.. guessed here as can see the house behind.

 

 

@BobAJob

How do you find a structural engineer?

Try the internet and look for local SE's.. you may find a few small outfits, one man bands that keep below the vat threshold so you avoid the 20% uplift on the fee. Also ask friends who have had an extension built say, they may have used an SE.

 

Do I need a surveyor to examine it and advise? Lots of £££

try the Se route first as they often have a list of reliable builder contacts.

 

I think I might get the whole thing ripped off and start again. I think it might cost around £12k to get it done right.  I don't mind paying. It's finding a decent tradesman round me is almost impossible.  They all just want to get the job done quickly not correctly and onto the next job. Then you end up paying multiple times when you could have just paid once to get it done right.  It's a disgrace. 

 

If you can post some photos of the roof so folk can see the shape, photos of the outside walls so you can see how it drains at the moment. If you have 12k then you could explore options.. could be upgrading of the walls too or maybe.. just a lantern? pushing it though but.. who knows.

[BobAJob]

10 minutes ago, Gus Potter said:

Looks like the main house may be a lowish pitch roof.. guessed here as can see the house behind.

 

 

@BobAJob

How do you find a structural engineer?

Try the internet and look for local SE's.. you may find a few small outfits, one man bands that keep below the vat threshold so you avoid the 20% uplift on the fee. Also ask friends who have had an extension built say, they may have used an SE.

 

Do I need a surveyor to examine it and advise? Lots of £££

try the Se route first as they often have a list of reliable builder contacts.

 

I think I might get the whole thing ripped off and start again. I think it might cost around £12k to get it done right.  I don't mind paying. It's finding a decent tradesman round me is almost impossible.  They all just want to get the job done quickly not correctly and onto the next job. Then you end up paying multiple times when you could have just paid once to get it done right.  It's a disgrace. 

 

If you can post some photos of the roof so folk can see the shape, photos of the outside walls so you can see how it drains at the moment. If you have 12k then you could explore options.. could be upgrading of the walls too or maybe.. just a lantern? pushing it though but.. who knows.

Ok, I'll take some more photos. 

 

The house is a 4 bed bungalow, so lowish pitch maybe 30 degrees. 

 

 

[ProDave]

What you are seeing there is a woefully poor lack of design and lack of detail.

 

the rafters are probably supported on the wall plate on the inner leaf of the wall, something is supporting them, they are not just levitating there.  That is the least of your problems.

 

The way the insulation is fitted, it might as well not be there. you need to ventilate the gap between the rigid insulation and the roof deck board, but you DON'T want to ventilate the space under the rigid insulation and what looks like a poor bit of glass wool insulation below.

 

To make the best of a bad job you want to seal up underneath the rigid insulation so that the necessary air vents in the soffit board only ventilate the space above the rigid insulation. so the space between the rigid insulation and the wall plate needs to be completely sealed, and when the soffit board goes back it needs vents at the top to vent the space above the insulation.

[BobAJob]

13 hours ago, ProDave said:

What you are seeing there is a woefully poor lack of design and lack of detail.

 

the rafters are probably supported on the wall plate on the inner leaf of the wall, something is supporting them, they are not just levitating there.  That is the least of your problems.

 

The way the insulation is fitted, it might as well not be there. you need to ventilate the gap between the rigid insulation and the roof deck board, but you DON'T want to ventilate the space under the rigid insulation and what looks like a poor bit of glass wool insulation below.

 

To make the best of a bad job you want to seal up underneath the rigid insulation so that the necessary air vents in the soffit board only ventilate the space above the rigid insulation. so the space between the rigid insulation and the wall plate needs to be completely sealed, and when the soffit board goes back it needs vents at the top to vent the space above the insulation.

Yeah, I have managed to track down the company that did the original installation of the flat roof and had them back to fix the EPDM rubber which was rippling. That's how we discovered that they hadn't glued it to the wooden roof boards. When they returned they just pull the rubber back and then put it back down again.  A year later we then had a leak from the roof and got our insurance company to send out a roof who said the flat roof was the problem because of the way the EPDM had been fitted, so two years ago we had the EPDM redone, but there was something odd about the fitter. He never mentioned that there were any problems with the roof structure and just fitted the rubber. We would have been happy to pay for the wood structure to be replaced and the roof to be done correctly. Instead the EPDM fitter replaced the rubber and went on his way. 

 

Now it looks like we have to rip it all up again and get someone to do it right.  The problem is finding a company that will actually do it right as all the tradesmen around just want to do jobs quickly, get paid and go on their way knowing that they have left you with problems. 

 

How do I find a decent roofer who wants to do the job correctly even if it takes longer and costs more? 

 

The EPDM fitter I found on Checkatrade. He was ok except that he didn't tell us about any problems we found so we could get them fixed by him at extra cost.  He just tried to do the entire job in 1 day and get paid £2500 for it. I almost had to fight with him to get a receipt for the payments. 

[BobAJob]

New photos. 

 

 

[BobAJob]

Roof inside has cracks between the plasterboards. 

[makie]

4 hours ago, BobAJob said:

How do I find a decent roofer who wants to do the job correctly even if it takes longer and costs more? 

 

The EPDM fitter I found on Checkatrade. He was ok except that he didn't tell us about any problems we found so we could get them fixed by him at extra cost.  He just tried to do the entire job in 1 day and get paid £2500 for it. I almost had to fight with him to get a receipt for the payments. 

 

Checkatrade is the problem here.... any idiot can sign up and claim to be a roofer. I genuinely have zero sympathy for people that get caught out while using these sites.

Word of mouth is the best way to find someone, ask around local roofing merchants/well known builders and they will tell you who they would recommend. Ask someone you know who has had work done previously.

 

Also when you say takes longer and costs more, that will all be factored into a quote or estimate by a professional.

Edited January 25, 2022 by makie

[Gordo]

2 hours ago, makie said:

Lack of clarity means more time which tradesman don't want to waste. So you have to have a clear plan in what needs done and how it is to be done. if you can't do that or get a trustworthy tradesman to advise. you need a professional. A Building surveyor is probably the best bet. Look up list of local members on CIOB. That good advice is going to cost quite a few hundred £. 

 

I would strongly suggest you go with a warm deck flat roof ie PVC roof membrane on 5" PUR rigid insulation on at a polythene vapour barrier on the existing deck (if it's sound)

Cut all the flat roof joists back flush with inner walls and install a timber header/lintel full length say 4x8" timber (top flush with top of flat roof) the flat roof joists supported on metal joist hangers. Strap the lintel down to walls so it doesn't blow off. That basically what I would be thinking.

 

Edited January 25, 2022 by Gordo

[Gordo]

BTW. Don't expect flat roof fitter to do or advise on joinery work or plasterboard, structural or insulation etc. That's not their specialism IE where they make their money. best to get a joiner to price and he can sub in the other trades as necessary.

 

Also that brickwork pier looks way to skinny to be structural sound (unless there's a post in there) but suppose it's lasted this long. All very ropey work

Edited January 25, 2022 by Gordo

[BobAJob]

3 hours ago, Gordo said:

BTW. Don't expect flat roof fitter to do or advise on joinery work or plasterboard, structural or insulation etc. That's not their specialism IE where they make their money. best to get a joiner to price and he can sub in the other trades as necessary.

 

Also that brickwork pier looks way to skinny to be structural sound (unless there's a post in there) but suppose it's lasted this long. All very ropey work

Yep, I think the previous owner who was a builder it himself. I do worry about unwrapping this extension as I may not like what I find inside and it may cost a lot to fix. However, I would prefer to pay once and get it done correctly than more bodging. 

 

Thanks for your advice. 

[BobAJob]

4 hours ago, Gordo said:

 

Thanks for this info. 

 

You've mentioned CIOB, who I've not heard of before. I was going to try a standard chartered surveyor like you'd get to do a house survey if you were buying a house. Are they the wrong type of surveyor for this type of job?

Thanks

[Gordo]

17 minutes ago, BobAJob said:

Thanks for this info. 

 

You've mentioned CIOB, who I've not heard of before. I was going to try a standard chartered surveyor like you'd get to do a house survey if you were buying a house. Are they the wrong type of surveyor for this type of job?

Thanks

Charters institute of building or royal institute of chartered surveyors or chartered association of building engineers with a specialised in building surveying. You will pay for their membership but have some comfort in expertise / professionalism

 

[BobAJob]

7 hours ago, makie said:

 

Checkatrade is the problem here.... any idiot can sign up and claim to be a roofer. I genuinely have zero sympathy for people that get caught out while using these sites.

Word of mouth is the best way to find someone, ask around local roofing merchants/well known builders and they will tell you who they would recommend. Ask someone you know who has had work done previously.

 

Also when you say takes longer and costs more, that will all be factored into a quote or estimate by a professional.

I tried a local merchants for recommendations and he told me they don't do recommendations as it's too risky. 

 

I did hire a company with great feedback and they turned out to be bad. In hindsight I should have sent them away on day one. They did the follow on the 3 days they worked for us:

 

- Day 1 - they were initially hired to clean moss off roof and redo valleys in guttering but they dropped off 2 guys with no tools and we had to lend them scrapers and brooms. 

 

- Day 2 - they turned up with cement mixer to mix the mortar for the valleys. Cement mixer did not work so I had to lend them an extension cable and fuses to get it working

 

- Day 3 - they announced that all ridge tiles were lose and did I want it wet or dry ridged. Dry eidge was cheaper so went with that.  I then noticed that they had left the old mortar on the edge of the ridge tiles and it would eventually fall off and all the tiles would become lose so I ended up having to climb up on roof to point out what they were doing wrong and get them to carefully (or not so carefully as it turned out - hence some missing corners on the ridge tiles) remove the old mortar then push the tiles in tight to form the ridge. 

 

- Day 4 - they broke a ridge tile and replaced it with the wrong size tile with a snapped off corner and not secure properly to the roof, so I had to go back onto the roof to point out this was wrong and get them to buy a reclaimed matching tile from a merchant.

 

They were a nightmare. Eventually I said no more and refused to pay.  I've not heard from them since. This company has 100+ reviews of 9.5 out of 10 for the last 10 years.  I hired another roofer and got him to fix the previous roofer's work. He told me that my previous roofer was well known in the area for doing bad work and over charging and had been banned from one builder's merchants because he assaulted another roofer when he went to his house to complain about him telling a customer that the roof work had been done incorrectly. Apparently he has a reputation for going to other roofers' houses and fighting them.

 

All I want is the job done correctly. I don't have a problem paying a decent amount of money to get it done right.  Finding someone who will do that appears to be impossible in our area. 

 

So far I've had:

 

- New bathroom done wrong - tiles with corners chipped off stuck to wall, 20 tiles fitted upside down, wrong adhesive used on floor tiles, leaking plumbing, fitter using an angle grinder to cut tiles instead of a tile cutting table.  All had to be ripped out back to bare plaster walls and redone at their cost using a different fitter

 

- Patio incorrectly laid - had to get tiles ripped up and relaid. Trader reported to trading standards with a report from a chartered surveyor saying his work was below the standard expected of a competent professional. This guy was a "Trusted Trader" with Trading Standards and he still is even after the exchange of 10 letters between the trader, us and trading standards. I would not recommend "Trusted Traders" from Trading Standards.

 

- the roofing nightmares

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Gordo]

4 minutes ago, BobAJob said:

I tried a local merchants for recommendations and he told me they don't do recommendations as it's too risky. 

 

I did hire a company with great feedback and they turned out to be bad. In hindsight I should have sent them away on day one. They did the follow on the 3 days they worked for us:

 

- Day 1 - they were initially hired to clean moss off roof and redo valleys in guttering but they dropped off 2 guys with no tools and we had to lend them scrapers and brooms. 

 

- Day 2 - they turned up with cement mixer to mix the mortar for the valleys. Cement mixer did not work so I had to lend them an extension cable and fuses to get it working

 

- Day 3 - they announced that all ridge tiles were lose and did I want it wet or dry ridged. Dry eidge was cheaper so went with that.  I then noticed that they had left the old mortar on the edge of the ridge tiles and it would eventually fall off and all the tiles would become lose so I ended up having to climb up on roof to point out what they were doing wrong and get them to carefully (or not so carefully as it turned out - hence some missing corners on the ridge tiles) remove the old mortar then push the tiles in tight to form the ridge. 

 

- Day 4 - they broke a ridge tile and replaced it with the wrong size tile with a snapped off corner and not secure properly to the roof, so I had to go back onto the roof to point out this was wrong and get them to buy a reclaimed matching tile from a merchant.

 

They were a nightmare. Eventually I said no more and refused to pay.  I've not heard from them since. This company has 100+ reviews of 9.5 out of 10 for the last 10 years.  I hired another roofer and got him to fix the previous roofer's work. He told me that my previous roofer was well known in the area for doing bad work and over charging and had been banned from one builder's merchants because he assaulted another roofer when he went to his house to complain about him telling a customer that the roof work had been done incorrectly. Apparently he has a reputation for going to other roofers' houses and fighting them.

 

All I want is the job done correctly. I don't have a problem paying a decent amount of money to get it done right.  Finding someone who will do that appears to be impossible in our area. 

 

So far I've had:

 

- New bathroom done wrong - tiles with corners chipped off stuck to wall, 20 tiles fitted upside down, wrong adhesive used on floor tiles, leaking plumbing, fitter using an angle grinder to cut tiles instead of a tile cutting table.  All had to be ripped out back to bare plaster walls and redone at their cost using a different fitter

 

- Patio incorrectly laid - had to get tiles ripped up and relaid. Trader reported to trading standards with a report from a chartered surveyor saying his work was below the standard expected of a competent professional. This guy was a "Trusted Trader" with Trading Standards and he still is even after the exchange of 10 letters between the trader, us and trading standards. I would not recommend "Trusted Traders" from Trading Standards.

 

- the roofing nightmares

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Reviews are open to abuse and not trust worthy. Personal recommendation usually best. Or membership of a certification scheme like federation of master builders or such which will step in if unhappy. No guarantee but better than nothing

[BobAJob]

3 minutes ago, Gordo said:

Reviews are open to abuse and not trust worthy. Personal recommendation usually best. Or membership of a certification scheme like federation of master builders or such which will step in if unhappy. No guarantee but better than nothing

Yeah, our problematic patio guy has positive reviews all over the place which I notice he is giving discounts to get. Apparently our patio was laid as exactly the same level it had been before. Unfortunately the surveyor said it was laid 10cm higher putting some air bricks lower than the patio. Luckily I had taken photos before the work started.  Patio guy got a solicitor to write us a letter with his latest story saying it was caused by a garden wall which he had told us needed replacing (he never said this and in fact said everything was fine and there was no mention of this story in his previous 10 letters which claimed it was exactly as before or due to pipework or subsidence or rain). I hired a solicitor as I was going to take him to court. I got told it would cost me £1000s to sue him so I ended up putting the £1000s into getting it ripped up and relaid. What a disaster and yet he still trades as a trading standards approved trusted trader. 

[Dave Jones]

dont look on any of the consumer sites chekatrade etc as if they are on there for a reason. Have a drive round and find a build happening locally and have a chat, expect to wait for decent trades.

 

personally id drop that side extension and start again its a total bodge and a real trade wont want to be polishing a turd.

[BobAJob]

4 hours ago, Dave Jones said:

dont look on any of the consumer sites chekatrade etc as if they are on there for a reason. Have a drive round and find a build happening locally and have a chat, expect to wait for decent trades.

 

personally id drop that side extension and start again its a total bodge and a real trade wont want to be polishing a turd.

I have thought about doing that but how much would that cost to do?

 

I think I'd also struggle to convince the owner of the house to let me do it. 

[MJNewton]

9 minutes ago, BobAJob said:

I think I'd also struggle to convince the owner of the house to let me do it. 

 

Are you renting?