Blinds that are compatible with Loxone

[Dunny1234]

Hi all,

currently doing the 1st fix of my house. Ive installed Loxone tree throughout, and plan to have automated blinds, and curtain tracks.  I’m getting a lot of different types of feedback about the best way of doing it. My Loxone installer is fairly new to it, and I just want to make sure we do it the best way.  Anyone out there that has done it, or know how to do it? 
 

Im keen to keep costs down as much as poss. Does anyone have experience with Somfy blinds working with Loxone?

 

any advice would be gratefully received 

 

thanks 

[tonyshouse]

I have, ten years ago, both lots operate via zero volt contacts soldered into the buttons of the controllers effectively pushing the buttons automatically- still working, must remember to change the batteries in the two that ratio control the curtains again 

[willbish]

8 hours ago, Dunny1234 said:

Anyone out there that has done it, or know how to do it? 

In the process of doing it...

Blindspace header boxes and side channels are in.

 

Installer has spec'd 5 core flex to each blind, Loxone Relay Extension will do the work in the cabinet. 

Only detail on blinds I've been told so far is chose ones with 240v motors.

 

 

[joth]

8 hours ago, Dunny1234 said:

Does anyone have experience with Somfy blinds working with Loxone?

I have Somfy Glydea®

Easiest integration with somfy is to use a pair or relays on the dry contact inputs. This is (generally?) on an RJ112 connector but your old BT phone extension is no use to plug into it as you need a cord with all 6 pins connected which was a bother to track down. This is not the most cost effective though as you're also paying for an unused Somfy RTS transceiver (and the brand name). Another model with basic 240V motor input would be just as easy to drive and cost less. I just panicked about the range of prices available on AliExpress and punted for the premium alternative.

 

We have internorm windows with iTec integrated blinds which were their own fun adventure to integrate (I went for the Mediola rather than Loxone gateway) 

[Dunny1234]

27 minutes ago, willbish said:

In the process of doing it...

Blindspace header boxes and side channels are in.

 

Installer has spec'd 5 core flex to each blind, Loxone Relay Extension will do the work in the cabinet. 

Only detail on blinds I've been told so far is chose ones with 240v motors.

 

 

Thanks Will, if it’s okay, you may hear from me again? I’ve put 4 core and Loxone to each blind. There just seems to be a 100 ways to make the blind work with Loxone. Somfy seem the most cost effective blind, but does it work with Loxone? I had a nose at your insta, nice build! Thanks again 

[willbish]

5 hours ago, Dunny1234 said:

Thanks Will, if it’s okay, you may hear from me again? I’ve put 4 core and Loxone to each blind. There just seems to be a 100 ways to make the blind work with Loxone. Somfy seem the most cost effective blind, but does it work with Loxone? I had a nose at your insta, nice build! Thanks again 

I've not spent anytime comparing prices for blinds yet, so i'd be interested to hear what you choose.

Do you mean you've brought a Loxone tree cable to the blind? Not sure why you'd need that but it's all a bit over my head.

 

[Dunny1234]

4 hours ago, willbish said:

I've not spent anytime comparing prices for blinds yet, so i'd be interested to hear what you choose.

Do you mean you've brought a Loxone tree cable to the blind? Not sure why you'd need that but it's all a bit over my head.

 

We decided to run both, just to have flexibility. As mentioned, everyone seems to have a different opinion on the best way of doing it. 
After some research, it seems the best company is ‘Cotton Mill’. They supply a decorquip motor/mechanico directional motor that works with Loxone /wired. Not cheap mind £200:for motor.

 

if you, or anyone, has a cheaper/better solution I’d be interested.

 

thanks 

[tonyshouse]

I have Somfy 

[Dan F]

Unless you have very big/heavy curtains most cost effective option I found was the "Somfy Movelite WT".  The "WT" version is simpe 230v 4-core (up, down, common, earth).  To control these you can use:

- Central relay

- Nano 2 Relay Tree

 

Alternatively you can use a more expensive motor with fixed 3-core power and dry-contacts for control.  But you'll still need a relay for dry-contacts, so you don't save any relays.  The one advantage of this approach though, is the "pull to open" funcitonality not available with the standard "WT" motros.

 

[willbish]

Hi @Dan F

Thanks for your recommendation. Im looking for some 240v blind motors to go with the Lonxone relay. A Somfy merchant has told me I must have the Somfy tacoma hub "which will be needed to programme the limit on each motor" Is this correct? Im sure its not but don't want to call him out. Is the Loxone relay capable of shutting off the motor when the blind is fully open/closed, is this just a set time parameter?

 

 

[Dan F]

1 hour ago, willbish said:

A Somfy merchant has told me I must have the Somfy tacoma hub "which will be needed to programme the limit on each motor" Is this correct?

 

I can't beleeive thats the case, no.  But of course, everyone wanta to sell you the smart version of their products and tie you into their ecosystem.  I have 230v exterior blinds (Elero) and the stops on these are mechanical and came pre-set with the windows. 

[willbish]

16 hours ago, Dan F said:

everyone wanta to sell you the smart version of their products and tie you into their ecosystem

So true

 

When you used the Somfy Movelite WT for the curtains how were the limits controlled?

[Dan F]

2 hours ago, willbish said:

When you used the Somfy Movelite WT for the curtains how were the limits controlled?

Installed, but not used them yet.  These are curtain motors rather than blinds.  According to technical details online the WT has automatic stop at the end of the track: https://aluproff.dk/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Movelite-35-Technical.pdf

 

The DCT one is also a good option and allows for pull-to-open as it has a permannt live and is configurable (not sure why this is needed though).  In our case we only took a 5-core cable to each blind though, not 3-core + control.

 

[HazzyD]

If it helps I've compiled a list of ways you can connect blinds/curtains to Loxone....
 

Option 1: Hardwired Power with Loxone Wireless Control

Example motors: Geiger Solidline Air - this is the motor Loxone promote

Loxone Parts Needed: Loxone Air Receiver

Pros:

• Loxone wireless protocol built into motor makes integration easy and no additional hardware needed at the window location (such as a wireless transmitter)
• Hardwired power means no batteries need re-charging
• No need for wiring back to a relay or main panel or plant room
• Only need 240v power at each window which could be taken off a socket or lighting circuit

Cons:

• This is a 45mm motor which means it will only go in a 65mm+ tube meaning the minimum rollup size is going to be around 70mm which is quite large
• High torque motors (great for RLs but overkill for standard blinds)
• Wireless control limits distance from transmitter to receiver
• Wireless control is not 100% reliable although it is good and always getting better
• As more devices become wireless there is more radio traffic and more risk of interference
• 'Dumb' motors with no 2-way communication or feedback to the system

 

Option 2: Hardwired Control Switched through Power

Example motors: Somfy WT, Nice Action, Vestamatic MM or ME

Loxone Parts Needed: Loxone 240v relay appropriate to the number of blinds you have. 

Pros:

• Total reliability of control
• Hardwired power means no batteries need re-charging
• Easy to trouble shoot
• Wide range of motors

Cons:

• Home-run wiring needed from the relay to every window
• Intermediate stops need to be done via a timer rather than using logic in the motors
• 'Dumb' motors with no 2-way communication or feedback to the system

 

Option 3: Hardwired Power with Wireless Control

Example motors: Somfy WT, Nice Action, Vestamatic MM or ME

Loxone Parts Needed: Shading Actuator Air

Pros:

• Hardwired power means no batteries need re-charging
• No need for wiring back to a relay or main panel or plant room
• Only need 240v power at each window which could be taken off a socket or lighting circuit
• Wide range of motors

Cons:

• Wireless control limits distance from transmitter to receiver
• Wireless control is not 100% reliable although it is good and always getting better
• As more devices become wireless there is more radio traffic and more risk of interference
• Intermediate stops need to be done via a timer rather than using logic in the motors
• 'Dumb' motors with no 2-way communication or feedback to the system
• (Loxone say it is a pain to setup)

 

Option 4: Hardwired Power with Dry Contact Control, 0v Control, DCT

Example Motors: Nice Edge AC or DC, Gaposa Sileo XS50 AC or DC, Somfy Sonesse 30 DCT, Glydea DCT, Movelite DCT

Loxone Parts Needed: Loxone 0v Relay with number of channels appropriate to the number of blinds

Pros:

• Total reliability of control
• Hardwired power means no batteries need re-charging
• Easy to trouble shoot

Cons:

• Good range of motors but mostly in a higher price bracket than the switching through power option
• Home-run wiring needed from the relay to every window
• Intermediate stops need to be done via a timer rather than using logic in the motors
• 'Dumb' motors with no 2-way communication or feedback to the system

 

Option 5: Hardwired Power with Digital Control

Example Motors: Sonesse 30 RS485, Sonesse 50 RS485, Vestamatic SMI, Nice Smart, Glydea RS485

Loxone Parts Needed: Loxone RS485 extension

Pros:

• Total reliability of control
• Hardwired power means no batteries need re-charging, power can be local to the blind
• Easy to trouble shoot
• Easy to set multiple intermediate limits and get hembar alignment at the stop positions
• Data can be daisy chained making communications wiring easier
• 'Smart' motors with 2-way communication, system can see blind status (open, closed, etc.)

Cons:

• Slightly limited motor range although some good options available
• Potentially more complex commissioning needed, especially when intermediate stops required
• Power and communication wiring should usually be separate, therefore two cables to run (although power could come off a socket or lighting circuit)

 

Option 6: Wireless power with Wireless Digital Control

Example Motors: Sonesse 30 WF RTS

Loxone parts needed: Loxone RS485 extension

Other parts needed: Somfy RS485 RTS transmitter;

Pros:

• Easy installation as no cabling required
• Long battery life (8-12 months depending on frequency of use)

Cons:

• Maintenance required, battery charging once a year
• Wireless control limits distance from transmitter to receiver
• Wireless control is not 100% reliable although it is good and always getting better
• Slightly complex commissioning for AV integrator and blind installer

 

Option 7: Wireless power with Wireless Dry Contact Control

Example Motors: Sonesse 30 WF RTS, Nice Edge Battery motor

Loxone parts needed: Loxone Dry Contact Relay

Other parts needed: Somfy DCT RTS transmitter or Nice 0v radio transmitter

Pros:

• Easy installation as no cabling required
• Long battery life (8-12 months depending on frequency of use)

Cons:

• Maintenance required, battery charging once a year
• Wireless control limits distance from transmitter to receiver
• Wireless control is not 100% reliable although it is good and always getting better

[Dan F]

@HazzyD Very comprehensive list.

 

I used Option 2, simply because I didn't pre-plan this and just let our electricians just ran a 5-core cable to each blind location.  In our case we have external Blinds (Elero JA Comfort) and interal curtain tracks on some windows (Somfy Movelite WT).  Some of the other options provide some additional functionaity, but they all cost more and none of the extra functionality adds that much value. (e.g. position feedback from the blind).   Did you compare costs of the different options too?

 

Few minor comments:

- Option 2 has a variation where, instead of the home run, you can could use a more localized tree relay.

- The controls by time actually works really well, even for venetian blinds where slat position is important.

- Another advantage of having a permnanent live is that some curtain motors support "pull to open".

- Maybe obvious, but an advantage of wireless options is a remote control.  With other approach you can do this using a Loxone Air Remote though.

 

I looked at SMI briefly at one point.  What I didn't realised was that it was RS485, and assumed I'd need Loxone->KNX->SMI.  

 

 

[Johnnyire]

On 28/04/2022 at 15:57, HazzyD said:

Option 2: Hardwired Control Switched through Power

Example motors: Somfy WT, Nice Action, Vestamatic MM or ME

Loxone Parts Needed: Loxone 240v relay appropriate to the number of blinds you have. 

Pros:

• Total reliability of control
• Hardwired power means no batteries need re-charging
• Easy to trouble shoot
• Wide range of motors

Cons:

• Home-run wiring needed from the relay to every window
• Intermediate stops need to be done via a timer rather than using logic in the motors
• 'Dumb' motors with no 2-way communication or feedback to the system

 

Just in relation to the cons, does the Nano 2 relay not do point 2 & 3?

"The Nano 2 Relay Tree automatically detects the end position of blinds. This not only saves a considerable amount of time during installation but also saves tiresome recalibration of the travel times. Due to the fully automatic end stop detection, the current position of the shading is displayed immediately and accurately within the app. "

Edited April 4, 2023 by Johnnyire

[sean1933]

 

I'm in exactly this situation now and looking to consider how I control lots of blinds throughout the house... but it's throwing up a few sill questions I can't answer.

 

I have pretty much settled on just running 5 core cable back to the loxone cabinet for 240v control and sorting motor choice further down the road.... although cheap aliexpress Zemismart motors are looking tempting.

https://a.aliexpress.com/_mLS5OTe

 

However I'm getting confused re what the requirements are for local isolation for blinds... if required surely this is a major downside to 240v motors as they are a pain to locate especially with 4 blinds in close proximity. 

 

The next question is how do I isolated a 5 core cable as the usual fused spur isn't going to do the job!?

 

@Dan F @joth what did you do? 

[sean1933]

More googling led me to the following which makes me think I dont need local isolation... albeit its another forum and an 8yr old post so obviously interested in a more up to date opinion!

https://www.electriciansforums.net/threads/electric-blinds-mechanical-maintenance-isolators-bsen-60204.101954/

 

Also - what size core flex did you go with @Dan F ? Would 0.75mm2 suffice or should I go with 1mm2? It gets expensive quickly!

Edited November 28, 2023 by sean1933

[joth]

I think it's mostly down to whoever is signing off your install for part P and what they're happy with. I've worked with 3 sparkles on installs now, none of them wanted local isolators for switched mains feeds to blinds/curtains/windows but they do want isolators for any permanently powered fused spur. One was happy for the isolation switches all to be grouped together in one cupboard per floor, another wanted then in the closest "obvious" place.

Interestingly they all want local isolator for electric underfloor heating even if it's remotely switched and even though the odds of needing to do running maintenance on a heating element glued under tiles seems way lower than a motor and blind with strings and stuff that may get tangled up day to day. But there you go, I've given up trying to guess and just ask them what they want 

 

Edited November 28, 2023 by joth

[joth]

2 hours ago, sean1933 said:

I have pretty much settled on just running 5 core cable back to the loxone cabinet for 240v control and sorting motor choice further down the road

Btw this wiring does limit your choice of motor. Some require permanent power and 3 core of "dry contact" relay switching, so they would need T+E and a 3 (or more) core control cable. I now specify 3+E and cat6 to each motor where the model isn't yet selected. OTT but it's the most flexible option 

[Alan Ambrose]

@joth I think the difference of opinion between various sparkys demonstrates that there is no accepted standard / little experience in the field / and not covered in detail by the regs.

[Kelvin]

26 minutes ago, joth said:

Btw this wiring does limit your choice of motor. Some require permanent power and 3 core of "dry contact" relay switching, so they would need T+E and a 3 (or more) core control cable. I now specify 3+E and cat6 to each motor where the model isn't yet selected. OTT but it's the most flexible option 

RobD advised the same so that’s what we have to every window. 

[Alan Ambrose]

>>>  I now specify 3+E and cat6

 

Run in different conduits?

[joth]

2 hours ago, Alan Ambrose said:

>>>  I now specify 3+E and cat6

 

Run in different conduits?

 

 up to the sparky... So far 0/3 used any conduits. 

 

[Dan F]

7 hours ago, joth said:

I think it's mostly down to whoever is signing off your install for part P and what they're happy with. I've worked with 3 sparkles on installs now, none of them wanted local isolators for switched mains feeds to blinds/curtains/windows but they do want isolators for any permanently powered fused spur. One was happy for the isolation switches all to be grouped together in one cupboard per floor, another wanted then in the closest "obvious" place.

Interestingly they all want local isolator for electric underfloor heating even if it's remotely switched and even though the odds of needing to do running maintenance on a heating element glued under tiles seems way lower than a motor and blind with strings and stuff that may get tangled up day to day. But there you go, I've given up trying to guess and just ask them what they want 

 

 

Similar here. Our electrician wanted local isolators for UFH and towel rails but didn't use any for blinds/curtains. In fact, the external blind connections are hidden behind PB in a simple choc box.

 

Our electrician used 1.5mm for some reason, but 0.75mm should be plenty.  The blind motor can't draw anywhere near 6A surely.. but take a look at a few spec sheets. It may depend on how big your windows are)