Choosing a new roof?

[UglyMan]

Hi Everyone,

 

Just looking for some non bias, impartial advice really.

 

We have a Welsh Slate roof on our late 1920s 3 bed semi. As a bit of background, we bought the house seven years ago and the homebuyers report told us that the roof was "end of life" and that due to multiple slipped slates (x16) and the fact that many neighbouring properties have had new roofs (all but x1 were council renewed) it needed to be replaced completely. A separate company then surveyed it and condemned it with a laughable £12k to replace. I already have had quotes since around 4-5 k.

 

Anyway, wife's friends Dad is a roofer. Came out, put x16 new slates on, repointed ridges and said easily 10 years or so left in it.

 

No problems since then until storm arwen were x3 dislodged slates occurred leading to leaks. Just been able to get these replaced along with about another 2 or 3 suspect slates due to time wasters over Christmas. When I asked their opinion on the roof they said that whilst it's had extensive repairs (about x40 or so tingles dotted around all three sides) but then if its not leaking then they can't tell me to buy a new one - but it would be different if I had to get them out every other month.

 

So, the 4k mark gets me a new Marley concrete plain roof which matches the council ones, adjoining neighbour and the new builds up the road. But, when I read up on it, some say the concrete roofs are great, others say not. Some say extra support is required but I have not seen anyone here do anything but new buttons going across. Some say they last 50 years (I'll be dead by then) others say half of that (I might still he around) so I am unsure what's best.

 

Then there is the Welsh slate, apparently the best and most expensive covering in the world- do I just keep on with the tingles? I wondered about a strip, new buttons and slates back on in the future and some say that's the best way others ask why would you want a new roof consisting of almost 100 year old materials.

 

What is your thoughts?

 

 

 

[SteamyTea]

Welcome.

When you say a 'new roof', do you mean just new slates, or a complete new roof?

Have you considered roof integrated PV, PV modules are often cheaper than slates, so may work out cheaper and you get some electricity.

[nod]

Putting concrete tiles on in place of slate usually leads to roof sagging without extra support

Theres probably no felt under the slates 

That why the roof leaks when you loose a slate 

I would strip the roof Membrane and Batton and reuse the slate 

I did this with my neighbors roof (Welsh slate) and had to buy about a 100 extra slates and simply re holed others 

 

[JohnMo]

Both nod and I posted at same time.

As an example I have roof integrated PV 3.1kW and it takes up around 15m2, on a DIY basis cost cost just over £2.5k with electrician cost included.

 

No roof tiles needed under PV.

 

A concrete tile weighs in quite heavy when compared to slate.  Have a good look around, to see if there is any sag on the other roofs, IE is the roof line still straight.  Also did they have to reinforce the roof, with extra wood etc.

 

Look on gumtree etc for people selling excess Welsh slate, you may see a bargain.  Get the roof stripped, the existing slates inspected as they come off and reuse the good and replace the bad.  Find a decent slating company, ask around knock on door in the local area etc.

Edited January 6, 2022 by JohnMo
Two posts at same time

[UglyMan]

Hi,

 

Thanks so much for all the quick replies! :)

 

A bit more info..

The slates don't have any felt no, they have 'torching' applied - lime and horsehair I am told, much of which has fallen off in the last few years the rest is quite loose.

 

I would say much off the lath going across is still in reasonable shape but there are areas dotted around were it is either fluffy and crumbly to the tough or is showing signs of damp / splits.

 

Some slates from the loft are powdery but seems to be just the surface.

 

Ridge board is quite furry looking but seems sturdy and purlins etc look good.

 

On the concrete roofs in the road, they all look ok as far as I can tell accept one. It's a bit strange, when I moved there in the road was an empty almost derelict house all caged off with signs "Dangerous building keep out" it had broken windows, holes in roof etc and it visibly leans to one side giving the roof a cock-eyed look. Legend had it that an old woman lived there nearly all her life and died with no next of kin that could be found, during this time chavs etc vandalised it. After years of laying empty it eventually passed via bonavacantia back to the council. The council gutted it and modernised it and this includes a new concrete tiled roof like their others. The roof is still cock-eyed and the house visibly leans to one side but a young family lives there now so time will tell it seems!

 

The other concrete roofs have been in place since 2008. Neighbours had new batons going across but that's it as did the leaning house up the road - not sure on the others though. Is this likely enough support in the type of baton needed? How long does it normally take to notice a sag?

 

On re-slating then, using my slates with just new baton and membrane, any idea how much I am looking at? We are in the Liverpool area if that helps and a new concrete roof costs between 4k - 5k for comparison.

 

Not heard of PV but I am going to look it up.

 

 

[SteamyTea]

19 minutes ago, UglyMan said:

We are in the Liverpool area

Not been there much since the 1980s, cost you a new set of car wheels every night visit won't it.

 

Look up GSE Integrated PV, not that ugly silver bolt on stuff.

Edited January 6, 2022 by SteamyTea

[UglyMan]

Thanks SteamyTea, nobody robs wheels anymore - they just take the car haha.

 

I will take a look at that yes.

[JohnMo]

Slate with GSE - before and after

 

[SteamyTea]

22 minutes ago, UglyMan said:

nobody robs wheels anymore - they just take the car haha.

Had a girlfriend whose parents lived in Aintree.

One day, when they were out in the back garden, they heard a noise at the front of the house.  Went in and some bloke was robbing their TV.  when asked what he was doing, his reply was 'nicking your TV', walked off with it, put it in his van and drove off.

 

Not sure if Alan Bleasdale was a neighbour.

[epsilonGreedy]

5 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

Have you considered roof integrated PV, PV modules are often cheaper than slates, so may work out cheaper and you get some electricity.

 

 

As discussed many times before you are creating a misleading expectation.

 

A standard PV panel is 1.7m2 in area. The OPs roof will typically have 19 slates per m2 or 32 per PV panel. The saving in slates will be less because a panel is unlikely to match whole slates. Then consider the complexity of flashing around the PV array.

 

As to costing: 32 slates cost say £60 compared to £150 low end for a PV panel + £30 for the infoot PV mounting tray.

 

Adding in-roof PV makes long term sense but it will increase the cost of a roof recover job particularly once the PV array is wired up below the roof.

[epsilonGreedy]

Does anyone know how @JohnMo's roofer fixed down the temporary working platform seen in the photo above?

[SteamyTea]

6 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said:

As discussed many times before you are creating a misleading expectation.

As usual, you have changed the meaning of a word to suit your ego.

6 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

PV modules are often cheaper than slates, so may work out cheaper

'Often' does not mean 'always' and 'may' does not mean 'will'.

 

So either learn to understand, and keep it within context, or (expletive deleted) off.

 

Anyway, haven't you got a world class IT team to manage, or you been 'released' to troll on the internet.  Weekends are so peaceful when your mum stops you playing on the computer in your bedroom.

Edited January 6, 2022 by SteamyTea

[epsilonGreedy]

Just now, SteamyTea said:

As usual, you have changed the meaning of a word to suit your ego.

'Often' does not mean 'always' and 'may' does not mean 'will'.

 

So either learn to understand, and keep it within context, or (expletive deleted) off.

 

At present a PV panel plus mounting tray plus flashing will never be cheaper than a slate roof covering unless a property is subject to a planning restriction that mandates welsh slate which is clearly not the case for the OP where the Council has installed concrete tiles.

 

Natural slates in the £1.50 to £2.00 range will be fine for the OP.

[JohnMo]

Temporary work platform is a triangle of steel with a tongue at the top which is hammered into the sarking board. Two or more pieces attached then a scaffold board.

[UglyMan]

Can anyone tell me then, if I keep the slates and go with new batons and membrane is this going to be cheaper than a whole new modern co create roof?

[Cpd]

If all the other buildings have concrete tiles and yours is the odd one out is it worth considering this as a reason to go concrete? 
my own roof is 120 years old (local Scottish slate) and was classed as a write off 10 years ago when I got the place, I just keep replacing slates each year as I can do it myself and quite like doing it…… can’t afford to re do it so just keep kicking the job into the long grass……. 

[UglyMan]

1 hour ago, Cpd said:

If all the other buildings have concrete tiles and yours is the odd one out is it worth considering this as a reason to go concrete? 
my own roof is 120 years old (local Scottish slate) and was classed as a write off 10 years ago when I got the place, I just keep replacing slates each year as I can do it myself and quite like doing it…… can’t afford to re do it so just keep kicking the job into the long grass……. 

 

There are 53 houses, I counted 25 that the council did in the same concrete style, my adjoining neighbour also concrete now though slightly different and three houses are double Romans. The rest if us are still on slate.

 

Yes we bought this 7 years ago and roof was "end of life" being "beyond economical repair due to slipped slates" by the homebuyers report. I had a so called reputable local company then come out, tell me the same and quote my an amazing 18k, yes... 18k to replace it. The week we moved in I had a work colleagues Dad who I learnt was a roofer come out, replace I think 15 or so slates and repoint all ridge and hips. Not had a problem since post-storm-arwen when I lost a slate on the back and then two or three near it went and water was coming in. Had these replaced just last week. This is after one company came out, got on the ladder and said "to be honest mate, I wouldn't be able to get on here.. it's in such poor condition it may just collapse" LOL.. company who did the work said its had extensive repairs but still in working order.

 

The problem I get is roofers tell you radically different things. Some make out like it will fall off any moment, some say its fine. I know the timber inside is really passed its best. Still holding but there are places that it is noticeably degrading. If rebatoned it would be better surely?

Edited January 9, 2022 by UglyMan
Pics added

[SteamyTea]

I think part of the problem with conflicting stories is that the roofers have to protect themselves.

Re-tiling, which is in effect, refurbishment would take them almost as long as a complete roof replacement.  You would feel a bit miffed if you spent several thousand on a refurbishment and then within a  few years you had to change the timbers and tiles.

Short of minor repairs, there does not really seem to be an half measures with a roof.

 

[Iceverge]

I would.

 

1. Strip the roof and battens. 

 

2. Consider reinforcing any rafters that look poor. If your roof isn't sagging I don't thing they look too bad otherwise. 

 

3. Install a good quality roofing membrane. 

4. Batten. 

 

5. Reslate with fiber cement slates. They're about 20kg/m2 Vs 35kg/m2 for welch slate and 45kg/m2 for concrete tiles. The fiber cement slates (asbestos I think) are 71 years on my parent's house still going strong. A lighter roof will give the roof timbers a good chance. 

 

6. Sell any welch slate you have left over. 

 

 

 

 

[Cpd]

Great advice above, can’t see from the photos but need to check the wall plate, I expect it will be in average condition and may need repairs or replaced if it’s anything like mine….. 

[Roundtuit]

1 hour ago, UglyMan said:

The problem I get is roofers tell you radically different things. Some make out like it will fall off any moment, some say its fine.

 

You need a roofer that is used to working with old houses. Someone who usually works with new builds or modern houses will just cr@p themselves when they see an old roof in need of some work, and assume the worst.  Hard to tell from photos, but structurally it doesn't look too bad.  Maybe get the roof timbers inspected for wet/dry rot and woodworm by an independent surveyor before you make any decisions.

 

As an aside, when I had an old roof re-slated (200 year old), I 'de-risked' it for the roofers and asked them to price for what they could see, and not build a contingency into the quote to cover 'hidden' problems.  When any problems cropped up, they told me what the best fix was and I paid for it.  I like to think I got a good job done, with no shortcuts, and only paid for what needed doing.

 

[Simplysimon]

i'd go along with @Iceverge above, rafters look good, no signs of rot in photos and if using different slate/tile size will need battened anyway, the only difference would be that if you wished to keep the slate then when the roof is stripped sort out the good slates and keep them for one area of roof (rear) and replace the rest with good quality spanish.