Planning Permission Refusal - Next Steps

[saveasteading]

On 04/01/2022 at 19:01, JAS-Build said:

Our next door neighbours, and in fact all near neighbours, are supportive of our plans. Just not the Planning Officer

The planning officers generally work to the rules laid down to them, some of which are subject to interpretation.

They report to the council who can allow a delegated decision or get it 'called in' to the full committee. This is dealbated and councillors vote.

I have been to many meetings and seen councils overturning the planner, and the planner doesn't take it personally , that is the system.

 

38 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said:

 

Received wisdom on this forum is that Parish Councils have very little influence on planning decisions

I don't agree. Been there, and had planners' recommendation overturned BUT you must present a solid argument and MUST get your Borough/District councillor to speak for you...they get a mate to second it and the rest usually don't care much.

 

If it goes to appeal, it gets a quick assessment from some consultant in Bristol and tends to be reversed and go through. Council gets another windfall development towards their punitive target.

 

Re the tree photo above. Councillors and even many planners are no good at reading drawings or imagining. As above, submit a rendered photo combining the view and the proposal.  I have done that many times and you can feel the relief among councillors when they understand the context for the first time. If you can't see the building at all, still put in the photo  'Look you cant see it.'

 

 

[joe90]

@JAS-Build find a list of councillors and ring/email them to ask if they can call it into committee, this is what I did, a local councillor was all for our build and so called it into committee.

[JAS-Build]

58 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said:

 

Received wisdom on this forum is that Parish Councils have very little influence on planning decisions, the usual context of such discussions is an objection from the PC. By implication their support does not count for much.

 

Your design is rather large, it looks over 3000 sq ft of internal floor space. When you made a comparison with your existing bungalow was that based on ground foot print or livable internal floor space?  

 

Thanks.

 

Yes the proposed 4 bed house is larger than the current 3 bed bungalow.  It's footprint is not that much of an increase though.  In terms of scale, we've based our design on being smaller than the 398sqm that we could build the bungalow out to under Permitted Development, so have a design with GIA of 357sqm.

 

We have a near neighbour who replaced their bungalow (which was closer to the road and on a smaller plot than ours) with a house and we have followed their lead on scale and finish.  Below is what the Council Case Officer wrote in their Report for our neighbour.  You'll see that the Council was happy to allow them to build larger than the PD rights envelope, whereas they've declined our request to go smaller.  

 

We followed our neighbour's lead in the hope that the Council would be consistent in their application of their own planning policy.

 

Our intent, if we get to committee, is to make this case to the councillors.

 

"

[epsilonGreedy]

18 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

I don't agree. Been there, and had planners' recommendation overturned BUT you must present a solid argument and MUST get your Borough/District councillor to speak for you...they get a mate to second it and the rest usually don't care much.

 

 

Parish Councils are a lower tier of government than Borough and District. Your equivalent in Scotland is a Community Council but these seem more junior to even a Parish Council. Do they still exist with any powers? Anyhow your reference to Borough and District councilors refers to a higher level of Government than a Parish therefore you post does not clarify the role or influence of a Parish Council in planning matters.

[epsilonGreedy]

16 minutes ago, JAS-Build said:

We followed our neighbour's lead in the hope that the Council would be consistent in their application of their own planning policy.

 

Our intent, if we get to committee, is to make this case to the councillors.

 

 

You deserve a direct conversation with them, their objection might be ridge height or the position of the garage. Who knows. Since buying my plot I have had extensive (literally hours in total) free face to face and telephone conversations with my local district planning department, all for the price of one £230 NMA. There is no parity of access to planners across the country judging by many accounts here.

 

How long ago did your neighbour obtain planning? I ask because when playing fair planners try to stick to their rule book and the most recent incarnation of published planning policy. The local planning policy will be revised over time.

Edited January 11, 2022 by epsilonGreedy

[JAS-Build]

11 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said:

 

You deserve a direct conversation with them, their objection might be ridge height or the position of the garage. Who knows. Since buying my plot I have had extensive (literally hours in total) free face to face and telephone conversations with my local district planning department, all for the price of one £230 NMA. There is no parity of access to planners across the country judging by many accounts here.

 

How long ago did your neighbour obtain planning? I ask because when playing fair planners try to stick to their rule book and the most recent incarnation of published planning policy. The local planning policy will be revised over time.

 

We've really struggled to get the planning to converse with us, apart from him emailing asking for extensions of time.  

 

Our neighbour's planning went through in late 2014 and it was under a previous release of planning policy 2006 - it was in renewed in 2016.  They're now playing catch-up to re-do the policy since NPPF 2021.

[joe90]

11 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said:

planners try to stick to their rule book and the most recent incarnation of published planning policy.

Not in my case, when I went to appeal and won the council were told in no uncertain terms that they were not abiding by their own policies. After 3 planning applications we applied fir something we did not want but would pass planning. The ground floor was exactly the same, just upstairs was different. This allowed for digging and foundations etc to start, we then appealed planning application non1 (which was what we really wanted) and won, so by the time the builder got to first floor level I had new plans for him. I would not pay planners in washers, they even told me that if I appealed I would more than lightly win, go figure.

[epsilonGreedy]

3 minutes ago, JAS-Build said:

 

We've really struggled to get the planning to converse with us, apart from him emailing asking for extensions of time.  

 

Our neighbour's planning went through in late 2014 and it was under a previous release of planning policy 2006 - it was in renewed in 2016.  They're now playing catch-up to re-do the policy since NPPF 2021.

 

 

Your need to do your research because my understanding of planning committee hearings that you will be timeboxed to a few minutes to present your case. You don't want to be blindsided when the committee chair refers to the pro planner who says something like "May I remind the committee of section (f) in the 2016 revisions introduced to curtail the random distribution of new upmarket mansions in the upper Xxxx valley".

[epsilonGreedy]

7 minutes ago, joe90 said:

Not in my case

 

 

I know, why did you edit out my "when playing fair" prefix?

[joe90]

28 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said:

 

I know, why did you edit out my "when playing fair" prefix?

I didn’t edit it out, like I didn’t edit out the rest of your piece, I quoted the relevant  part, I just wanted to make my point that planners don’t always act fairly!

 

[JAS-Build]

33 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said:

 

Your need to do your research because my understanding of planning committee hearings that you will be timeboxed to a few minutes to present your case. You don't want to be blindsided when the committee chair refers to the pro planner who says something like "May I remind the committee of section (f) in the 2016 revisions introduced to curtail the random distribution of new upmarket mansions in the upper Xxxx valley".

 

Thanks epsilonGreedy.

 

We have done a lot of research and have a terrier-like planning consultant who is all over the policy, both what the Council must adhere to now, how it can be/has been interpreted and what has or is coming down the line on NPPF etc.

 

We do have 3 minutes at the Committee (if our case is 'called/pushed' there) but since it's all done over Teams now, the public statements are just read out by a Council speaker.

 

Just trying to decide how much we 'target' Committee members by email/phone to get their support but not put their noses out of joint.  Any thoughts on that welcome...?

[saveasteading]

2 hours ago, epsilonGreedy said:

you post does not clarify the role or influence of a Parish Council in planning matters.

 

This was in England so I am only answering re England.

 

Having spoken in several planning meetings on behalf of a client or the Parish I can only answer re those Borough or District councils I have been involved with.

(I have attended many more meetings as an observer and heard the process)

 

There is only 3 minutes  to speak, therefore you are making it clear to the councillors who have not read the documents (they haven't) that the case is good. When speaking for the parish, you are effectively speaking for many people. If we weren't making this statement it would look as if we didn't care.

However the main point is that it is before the committee because we asked for it to be, and it is essential that a councillor proposes acceptance/rejection on your behalf. 

 

I have often heard it said that councils/ enquiries take the presence of locals as a given, and a lack of attendance shows that they don't care enough.

 

In summary the Parish Council has a say, but it is not a given and they have to support with evidence, not just vague statements.

 

 

[epsilonGreedy]

1 hour ago, JAS-Build said:

Just trying to decide how much we 'target' Committee members by email/phone to get their support but not put their noses out of joint.  Any thoughts on that welcome...?

 

 

I am only familiar with two cases and doubt I can add value above what your planning consultant is advising. In one case the self builder represented himself at committee and won. The pro planner from the council department could not present a rational case for the initial refusal and was subtly admonished for wasting the committee's time. The self builder was mostly peeved about the additional £1500 cost of printing an info folio for each committee member to refer to.

 

The second case of two properties about 50 metres  apart. The one inside the conservation area was subject to fine grain conditions about finishing materials to created a heritage look and the other effectively in the same village just outside the CA boundary is a leading edge passiv house with a green roof, acres of glazing and PV. Planners just seem to have segmented minds and either try to apply rules or they roll a dice.

Edited January 11, 2022 by epsilonGreedy

[saveasteading]

32 minutes ago, JAS-Build said:

Just trying to decide how much we 'target' Committee members by email/phone to get their support but not put their noses out of joint.  Any thoughts on that welcome...?

If I haven't explained properly, tell me and I will try again.

But I would do 2 things.

 

1. If you have graphics of how little this will affect the street scene/ neighbour, ask the planning officer to display it during your presentation. Just one definitive picture, not a slide show.

2. Lobby your own councillor as they have by far the most credibility.

Give them a precis and pictures that make it easy for them to understand and explain. They can talk almost as long as they like.

They will also ask another councillor to support the motion.

I remember the last time I did this, the supporting councillor simply said ' I know the village and the passion of the parish council, and if they say that this will spoil the village then I support them.'  and sat down.

 

The rest of the councillors will tend to go along with that proposal, as they don't care much, but will want similar help themselves some time.

 

If it goes your way, the planner then agrees a form of words on the spot.

 

[JAS-Build]

12 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

2. Lobby your own councillor as they have by far the most credibility.

 

We immediately contacted our Ward Councillor on hearing that the Officer was going to Refuse the application - she told us she couldn't help because she was the Planning Committee Vice Chair, then wished us luck!

 

I'm tempted to contact our next door Ward Councillor who seems a bit more sensible.....?

 

[saveasteading]

1 minute ago, JAS-Build said:

contact our next door Ward Councillor

 

Your ward councillor is allowed to support you, but may have to abstain (depends on the council's own rules, which she likely doesn't know).

 

Not wanting to is a downer.

 

So, you are supposedly entitled to a councillor's help and yours refuses so, yes, ask the next one.

If they don't agree with your proposal then that is another matter.

[JAS-Build]

Thanks for all the comments.

 

After a considerable effort all round. we actually got a site visit by the case officer last week where we could discuss things face to face (at a distance), and this has appeared today....

 

A change of heart, thank goodness.

 

Now the real work starts......  ?  

 

 

Edited January 25, 2022 by JAS-Build

[Mr Punter]

Well done.  It did seem odd that they were considering refusal.

[Stephen Smith]

Hello all, just had a pre-app meeting and have now received a written response, asking for a landscape and visual impact assessment.  Does anyone know who provides these please?  (PS I'm in Dorset) Thanks very much

[saveasteading]

Hi . Firstly just checking. Is this a new discussion or linked to the ones above?

[Temp]

5 hours ago, Stephen Smith said:

Hello all, just had a pre-app meeting and have now received a written response, asking for a landscape and visual impact assessment.  Does anyone know who provides these please?  (PS I'm in Dorset) Thanks very much

 

Google found this man..

 

https://www.clivewarwicklandscapedesign.co.uk/about-us.html

 

If you hire an expert (any expert) ask him for a preliminary opinion before he writes his report. That way you can consider or incorporate any changes he recommends before writing the report for the council or even bin it and get one from someone else.

 

 

[saveasteading]

5 hours ago, Stephen Smith said:

Does anyone know who provides these please?  (PS I'm in Dorset) Thanks very much

They want you to show them what it will look like, in picture form, easy to understand.

 

It suggests that they are conceened that it might look out of place or overbearing.

It is your opportunity to show them it isn't.

 

My business had to do this several times.

 

We selected the views that either concerned the planners or neighbours and took photos.

Then our inhouse architect generated 3d views of the building from that, or these, spots.

 Then one is photoshopped into the other.

If your design is already done in a 3d design suite then this is easy.

 

What is your position on this? Used a designer or diy?

[Stephen Smith]

Thanks very much for the info, very useful.  I'm a self-employed builder with a field adjacent to a village settlement boundary.  Have now found out that the LVIA is going to cost around £5000 so I don't want to risk spending that amount as the pre-app written report has come back very negative.

[Dave Jones]

22 hours ago, Stephen Smith said:

Thanks very much for the info, very useful.  I'm a self-employed builder with a field adjacent to a village settlement boundary.  Have now found out that the LVIA is going to cost around £5000 so I don't want to risk spending that amount as the pre-app written report has come back very negative.

 

go  for outline only.