dpmiller Posted December 17, 2023 Share Posted December 17, 2023 1 hour ago, ProDave said: And there is a more fundamental issue. If you are heating with an ASHP (rather than direct electricity) an ASHP will never get a thermal store hot enough in the first place. So a thermal store is a complete non starter if a heat pump is in your plan. people keep saying this, anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted December 17, 2023 Share Posted December 17, 2023 27 minutes ago, dpmiller said: people keep saying this, anyway. You use a high output temp ASHP to heat the cylinder to 70, but why would you, when you can heat to 45 - 50. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpmiller Posted December 17, 2023 Share Posted December 17, 2023 12 minutes ago, JohnMo said: You use a high output temp ASHP to heat the cylinder to 70, but why would you, when you can heat to 45 - 50. Not necessarily. Our system runs the TS at 50 but the ASHP cuts in and recovers the tank *during* use. Like an electric shower, but with a COP well above unity... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susie Posted December 17, 2023 Share Posted December 17, 2023 3 hours ago, ProDave said: And there is a more fundamental issue. If you are heating with an ASHP (rather than direct electricity) an ASHP will never get a thermal store hot enough in the first place. So a thermal store is a complete non starter if a heat pump is in your plan. No plans for ASHP our plan is make the most of solar with diverters to a cylinder, our business and a battery. Out of the 11kW system none will go back to the grid. husband could do the UVC course but have to face facts neither of us are getting any younger so I want something simple. Twenty five years ago he made a control panel for the UFH it had simple controls for me to use but I feel sorry for who moved into the house after us as they would need an engineer to make program alterations. He is under instructions that I need to be able to do most future maintenance my self or at least direct son in law what to do. Time spent on the UVC course and travelling 3hr round trip minimum has a knock on effect on income as we are both self employed. Constantly thinking what we earn p.h. v what we would pay a contractor. It’s often better for us to work, not necessarily the same in 10 years if we do retire though. Would hate to need a g20 qualified person here (north Cornwall) as we have a shortage of most trades. Can you set the temperature on heat exchangers 45 degree for domestic hot water sounds high as its probably mixed down at the taps. Hoping we won’t need the UFH just putting the pipes in just in case, would consider a Willis heater for the UFH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone West Posted December 17, 2023 Share Posted December 17, 2023 On 10/12/2023 at 21:48, Susie said: Have you looked at open vented thermal stores no annual tests required and with 2 electric immersion elements. Provides main’s pressure water and heating. https://www.gledhill.net/products/alternative-energy/torrent-stainless-ov/ We are going to have an open vented thermal store, heated with an oil boiler, solar thermal and PV, for similar reasons as you. I was looking at the Newark Aquinox TS with PHE which is very efficient. I can't see it on their website now though. Aquinox HWM.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted December 17, 2023 Share Posted December 17, 2023 I have not read, and digested all this topic, but I get the feeling that there may be some confusion with terminology. There are thermal stores, vented cylinders and invented cylinders. The method of heat input to all three are basically the same i.e have something hot inside them to transfer the energy. It is the extraction of the hot water that then differs. A thermal store usually uses a heat exchanger, vented cylinders generally never do, and an unvented cylinder usually does not, but it might. So is the OP really talking about a thermal store (often multiple inputs) or an vented cylinder. It is only the invented cylinders that need G3 as far as I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesPa Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 On 17/12/2023 at 09:50, JohnMo said: If you have the skills to install a thermal store do the UVC course, cert is valid for 10 years and training is one day at your local college. That's what I did. So self install and self service. You have very helpfully made this suggestion several times. Round here (Southeast England) it seems very difficult/impossible to do a G3 course without having a plumbing certificate (I havent actually checked that they enforce this mind you, I have only checked the 'course preprequsites'). Also what exactly does it allow you to do (or mean you dont have to do). So far as I understand it you can install and maintain, but the requirement to notify building control remains unless you are also a member of a self certification scheme. Is that correct? (Of course this may differ between England and Scotland so please answer, if you are prepared to, for whichever you know) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 20 minutes ago, JamesPa said: what exactly does it allow you to do (or mean you dont have to do). So far as I understand it you can install and maintain, but the requirement to notify building control remains unless you are also a member of a self certification scheme. Is that correct? (Of course this may differ between England and Scotland so please answer, if you are prepared to, for whichever you know) You get the G3 cert covering you for English and Scottish Regs and hygiene cert for domestic hot and cold water systems. So you can design, install and self certify UVC installations. So can produce the commissioning certificate, and recertify annually also. If you need to register a cylinder install seewith local council you can do that also. But they do not need to come out to any validation or such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharpener Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 5 hours ago, JohnMo said: So you can design, install and self certify UVC installations. So can produce the commissioning certificate, and recertify annually also. Coming to this (drifted) thread by chance I am a bit puzzled by this. I have a 25 y/o UVC and I check the strainer annually and the TPRV whenever I am up in the loft space i.a.w. the MFIs. That is all they say is necessary and I can easily do it myself. Where exactly does the requirement to have it "serviced" and "re-certified" annually by a G3 technician come from? Does anyone really bother? Insurers are mentioned upthread, are they really that interested in all this? BTW the HP installers have not noticed or mentioned that there is no tundish and so the outlet pipe does not increase to 22mm below it. Not much point in fitting one bc if within 1m of relief valve it could not be heard when the loft is closed up. (Also IME they are rubbish, at full bore they splash all over the place.) It has been like that for 17 years to my certain knowledge. The original installer used to service our oil boiler but never once suggested he look at the cyl, and has now retired. Some of his other work was a bit dodgy too, for example the filling "loop" is in rigid pipe with only a single shut-off valve. And the boiler PRV vents straight into the plant room, as it has no drain connection let alone a tundish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesPa Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 4 hours ago, sharpener said: Coming to this (drifted) thread by chance I am a bit puzzled by this. I have a 25 y/o UVC and I check the strainer annually and the TPRV whenever I am up in the loft space i.a.w. the MFIs. That is all they say is necessary and I can easily do it myself. Where exactly does the requirement to have it "serviced" and "re-certified" annually by a G3 technician come from? Does anyone really bother? Insurers are mentioned upthread, are they really that interested in all this? BTW the HP installers have not noticed or mentioned that there is no tundish and so the outlet pipe does not increase to 22mm below it. Not much point in fitting one bc if within 1m of relief valve it could not be heard when the loft is closed up. (Also IME they are rubbish, at full bore they splash all over the place.) It has been like that for 17 years to my certain knowledge. The original installer used to service our oil boiler but never once suggested he look at the cyl, and has now retired. Some of his other work was a bit dodgy too, for example the filling "loop" is in rigid pipe with only a single shut-off valve. And the boiler PRV vents straight into the plant room, as it has no drain connection let alone a tundish. I'm am also a bit puzzled to be honest. I'm trying to find the regulation that requires a certification to install a uvc, requires annual maintenance and requires a certification to maintain. So far I haven't found it in English law (but I admit I haven't read the building regs 2010 end to end - yet). What I have found is a requirement to notify the local building control unless you are a member of a self certification scheme. I'm not suggesting its not there, but I would like to find it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 25 minutes ago, JamesPa said: I'm am also a bit puzzled to be honest. I'm trying to find the regulation that requires a certification to install a uvc, requires annual maintenance and requires a certification to maintain. So far I haven't found it in English law (but I admit I haven't read the building regs 2010 end to end - yet). What I have found is a requirement to notify the local building control unless you are a member of a self certification scheme. I'm not suggesting its not there, but I would like to find it. The main driver is cylinder warranty - some cut and pastes below. warranty 1. The unit has been installed and commissioned in accordance with our installation and service instructions and all relevant codes of practice and regulations in force at the time of installation. Maintenance periods will vary for many reasons. Ideal Boilers recommend a maximum of 12 months... On completion of the work, fill in the Benchmark Service Record at towards the back of this manual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesPa Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 35 minutes ago, JohnMo said: The main driver is cylinder warranty - some cut and pastes below. warranty 1. The unit has been installed and commissioned in accordance with our installation and service instructions and all relevant codes of practice and regulations in force at the time of installation. Maintenance periods will vary for many reasons. Ideal Boilers recommend a maximum of 12 months... On completion of the work, fill in the Benchmark Service Record at towards the back of this manual. If that's correct then it's a long way from what the industry tells us, ie that you _must_ have the qualification to install a UVC (with a strong implication that it's a legal requirement). I think I will do some more reading of the building regs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 1 hour ago, JamesPa said: If that's correct then it's a long way from what the industry tells us, ie that you _must_ have the qualification to install a UVC (with a strong implication that it's a legal requirement). I think I will do some more reading of the building regs! G3 regs state 3.10 Hot water storage systems should be designed and installed in accordance with BS6700:2006 + A1:2009 Specification for design, installation, testing and maintenance of services supplying water for domestic use within buildings and their curtilages BS6700:2006 states 4.1 Maintenance procedures Maintenance procedures shall be adopted to maintain the performance of the installation at the level specified in this standard for the original design and installation. Unvented hot water storage installations shall be maintained and repaired only by a competent person (see building regulations A.1). 4.7 Vessels under pressure Any vessels storing water under pressure shall be inspected for indications of deterioration no less frequently than at the intervals recommended by the manufacturer. Expansion vessels shall be inspected for indications of deterioration in strength and the gas pressure measured no less frequently than at the intervals recommended by the manufacturer. If the gas pressure is not within the limits specified for the application it shall be adjusted to within those limits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharpener Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 1 hour ago, JohnMo said: G3 regs state 3.10 Hot water storage systems should be designed and installed in accordance with BS6700:2006 + A1:2009 Unlike the rest of the excerpts the use of the word "should" here implies that it is not in fact mandatory. But as it is notifiable under the Building Regs I don't know how you would in practice get away with anything else. If DIY I imagine they would inspect just like other building work. G3 installers can self-certify IIRC. Then there is the old conundrum about definition of "competent", maybe it is elsewhere in the G3 regs. OSO cylinder has internal expansion space and no provision for measuring or adjusting the pressure. The instrs have a complicated process for initial fill which I have never had to implement (and I bet the HP installers don't know about). Ariston instrs are much the same as Ideal quoted above, annually. If the pressure is wrong there is water hammer so you soon know about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 8 hours ago, sharpener said: Then there is the old conundrum about definition of "competent", maybe it is elsewhere in the G3 regs. They don't make it easy. The Manual to Building Regs states "Some types of work may be done by a ‘competent person’. This is a term for an installer who works under a scheme that has been approved by the government." Then a table showing work process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesPa Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 (edited) Thanks for looking this up. Its particularly interesting that they use 'should' for the installation and 'shall' for the maintenance. One might expect it to be either the same or the other way round. Poor drafting? The 'competent person' chestnut is as you say an old and frequent one. Its obvious that a way to 'prove' competence is to have a relevant certificate (notwithstanding all the evidence that many HP installers are not very competent), but its not clear its the only way. A key point (as I understand it*) seems to be, however, that even if you have the qualification (proving 'competence') you still need to notify building control (and thus pay the notification fee) unless you are also a member of a competent persons scheme. I guess that if you do notify and also present your certificate of competence they may be less likely to inspect, but since you have paid the fee anyway its unclear whether this is to your advantage. All a bit confusing! *The closest I have found in the actual regulations (applying to England) is reproduced below Building Regs 2010 Article 12 And from Schedule 3 Edited February 21 by JamesPa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 1 hour ago, JamesPa said: you still need to notify building control (and thus pay the notification fee) unless you are also a member of a competent persons scheme I rang mine and they basically said not interested. If covered by other work that required planning permission, they are interested, otherwise not interested, get on with it. So I would think most councils will be the same. Unlikely they log what properties have an UVC unless otherwise stated in a planning application. Basically I have 2 certs "water bylaws" it states I should join a self certification scheme, where as, the "G3" cert says nothing. You would think it would be the way round. Not sure they know which way is up, so why should anyone else? Think like a lot of conversation on here, it turns out the 1% (or less) of people try to go the right thing, while rest do what they want, even the professionals, than should know better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesPa Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 2 hours ago, JohnMo said: I rang mine and they basically said not interested Fascinating, you might think it was easy money for building control! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesPa Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 (edited) @JohnMo @sharpener I read the Building Regulations 2010 (England) (as amended by subsequent enactments) end to end (except the bits specific to types of building other than DHW). I confirm that the only requirements I could find are (a) that the works conform to the specified requirements (reproduced below) and (b) to notify the local authority of the works (which, in England anyway, attracts a fee) unless the works are carried out by someone who is a member of a competent persons scheme. Some might argue that the 'safest' way to achieve this (if you are yourself fairly capable) is to have the qualification and do the work yourself, working strictly to the guidance document and manufacturer instructions, with the next safest way (or safest if you are not yourself fairly capable) being to employ someone who has the qualification . In the latter case, if they are also a member of a competent persons scheme, building control don't have to be notified. However none of this is an actual requirement in the regulations, unless I have missed something*. Its rather interesting how the law has been drafted, even more so since @JohnMo tells us that his building control weren't interested. (*there may have been something additional which applies if you are doing the work as a business for another person - I wasn't looking for that) Additionally there may be guarantee/insurance issues as you point out, although I do wonder how valuable this is - i.e. how many DHW cylinders fail within the guarantee period I wonder - other than the immersion heater?) For an individual keen on DiY there might be a good case for simply doing it, and getting building control to inspect and issue a completion certificate or tell you what was wrong. Regulations related specifically to DHW reproduced below Edited February 22 by JamesPa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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