IanR Posted May 27, 2016 Share Posted May 27, 2016 Have any of the providers of passive slab systems yet got their product(s) BBA (or similar) Certified? When I did my main research a year or so ago I don't remember finding anyone with Certification. If that is the case, what's holding the various companies back? Similar to what has been recently mentioned in a Structural Insurance thread, I've had additional questions raised, or outright knock-backs as my chosen foundation is not "Certified". While any issues raised can generally be got around, lack of Certification does cause extra churn. For instance my foundation design was initially met by Building Control with a "it will never work, I've never seen anything like it" statement. And it took extra drawings and sketches to explain the principle. It's a shame as the product clearly has a number of advantages, but I feel passive slab type foundations will remain a niche product without recognised certification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted May 27, 2016 Share Posted May 27, 2016 I'm pretty sure the Kore system has a BBA chit now, and Isoquick seems to have a raft of approvals: http://www.isoquick.co.uk/index.htm and I thought that Supergrund (now Kingspan Aeroground) also had a load of approvals, too. FWIW, our BCO passed the Kore system with barely a glance at the spec, and asked no questions at all about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calvinmiddle Posted May 27, 2016 Share Posted May 27, 2016 Ours had no issue with it either - only think he wanted to make sure was that the stone it sits one was below the ground level so that there was no risk of it washing out before the levels where build back up round the house Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanR Posted May 27, 2016 Author Share Posted May 27, 2016 46 minutes ago, JSHarris said: I'm pretty sure the Kore system has a BBA chit now, and Isoquick seems to have a raft of approvals: http://www.isoquick.co.uk/index.htm and I thought that Supergrund (now Kingspan Aeroground) also had a load of approvals, too. Kore have Approvals for their insulation to be used in ground and under concrete, but I wasn't aware their (or whoever claims to own it) foundation system has any Certification. I also thought Supergrund/Aeroground would be certified by now as Supergrund were saying they would have Certification "soon" a few years back, but I can't find any record of it...may be I'm looking in the wrong place. Isoquick do appear to have some sort of certification for their system with LABC, which is OK if you are happy with a 250mm thick slab. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted May 27, 2016 Share Posted May 27, 2016 BBA is only one of many approval schemes though, and there's no legal requirement for any product used to have been approved by a scheme anyway. Certainly our LABC weren't phased at all by the Kore system, even though they'd never seen it before. Are your building control body being awkward for some reason? It's be interesting to know why, as I've not heard of any of the various control bodies having any problems accepting an SE's report before. The Kore slab is PassivHaus certified, and there is a load of detail on it on their website: https://www.kore-system.com/kore-products/floor-insulation/kore-passive-slab/what-is-kore-passive-slab Just noted that it is certified as BBA equivalent anyway, it has NSAI, which is accepted here: https://www.kore-system.com/hubfs/docs/KORE_Passive_Slab_Mini_Brochure_20152809.pdf Nice to see that Kore have made their design guide downloadable, too, should keep a lot of BCOs happy: https://www.kore-system.com/hubfs/docs/KORE_Passive_Slab_Design_Guide.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mackers Posted May 27, 2016 Share Posted May 27, 2016 Does it need to be? As long as it meets the structural engineers calculations it should be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted May 27, 2016 Share Posted May 27, 2016 10 minutes ago, Mackers said: Does it need to be? As long as it meets the structural engineers calculations it should be fine. No, there is no requirement for BBA approval at all. The Kore system does have it via the back door though, as is has NSAI approval which is accepted in the UK as BBA approval (I know this for sure, as our whole frame, windows, slab etc all have NSAI approval, and our BCO confirmed that this was generally accepted as being equivalent to BBA). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandAbuild Posted May 27, 2016 Share Posted May 27, 2016 The only one we found with BBA certification was Insulslab, but it seems a bit too complicated for a one-off build Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanR Posted May 27, 2016 Author Share Posted May 27, 2016 3 hours ago, JSHarris said: Just noted that it is certified as BBA equivalent anyway, it has NSAI, which is accepted here: https://www.kore-system.com/hubfs/docs/KORE_Passive_Slab_Mini_Brochure_20152809.pdf That's certifying EPS for use in ground and under concrete, it's not certifying a passive slab system. My BC have generally been quite helpful, but for the slab immediately asked for the BBA Certification when they didn't understand a certain aspect. If it had been a certified system the box box would have been ticked, as it wasn't more detail had to be provided to settle their misunderstanding. 3 hours ago, Mackers said: Does it need to be? As long as it meets the structural engineers calculations it should be fine. No it doesn't need to be, for people motivated to self-build and wanting a low energy home will go the extra mile to jump through the hoops insurance companies and the like erect when their "computer says no". But that is a very small sector pf the construction industry and hence the product remains a niche product. I personally feel there are some clear advantages to an insulated foundation, in certain situations, which justify greater market penetration, but without mainstream recognition through certification I can't see volume builders even considering it. 1 hour ago, RandAbuild said: The only one we found with BBA certification was Insulslab, but it seems a bit too complicated for a one-off build I'd not seen Insulslab before, and as you say it is quite complicated, but it is cold-bridge free for a masonry build and they've got it BBA Certified, so hats off to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted May 28, 2016 Share Posted May 28, 2016 You're the very first person I've heard of whose BCO has raised this as an issue, so my thoughts are that it's really a problem to your specific BCO, who seems to want something that isn't a mandatory requirement. There are quite a few here with passive slabs now, and I can't recall anyone having a problem with building control at all, which sort of indicates where the problem lies, I think. As for mainstream builders, well, 80% of what they build never gets inspected anyway, and that which does seems to get passed with glaring failures to comply with the building regs. It's only really self-builders and small builders who are subjected to real scrutiny by building control now, the big boys certainly aren't,as a walk around any big development will show pretty quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex C Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 My BC/warranty assessor wasn't fussed at all, he said he had seen plently of insulated slabs. All he wanted to see was that the steel was fixed properly and would have adequate concrete cover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey_1980 Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 Our BCO wasn't fussed by the Kore system, he had never seen it before and knew their internal SE wouldn't have either so didn't even bother sending the details over just ok'd everything based on what MBC supplied, it also helped that Jeremey turned up at the same time as our BCO when they were laying the EPS and explained everything to him. The same again with the LABC who we used for the warranty, they had no issues with the system they just wanted the soil test results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogman Posted June 16, 2016 Share Posted June 16, 2016 Looks like we may have issues in Berkshire Quotes from Building control "we would want structural justification for this system as we have never seen it before. I understand it is an Irish firm, but with a uk website would expect them to have a UK BBA certificate for the system or may be an LABC system approval?? " They have an issue with the company not being in the Uk. " I think it would be a good idea to have a UK, local engineer involved and to check foundation design " As we have not decided on who will do our inspections I might use a company to do both the warranty and building control together. We have had this twice before, once when we put underfloor heating in a house some 24 years ago and again 4 years age when we used SIP panels. Don't building control keep up with current build methods? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calvinmiddle Posted June 16, 2016 Share Posted June 16, 2016 But the MBC slab is signed off by their SE isn't it? I know my BCO had no issue with it at all - he was familiar with it and just wanted to check that the stone it lays on wasn't just placed on the top of the soil (creating a mound of stone) as they had seen that before and the stone started to run out when the concrete went in. Maybe time for a new BCO I'm thinking..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey_1980 Posted June 16, 2016 Share Posted June 16, 2016 That's crazy we have had no issues with the local BCO from the council nor the surveyors from LABC providing our warranty, who is your local BCO is it West Berks as there another MBC house in Cheivley that MBC built last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted June 17, 2016 Share Posted June 17, 2016 This is just a very poorly educated BCO, who isn't familiar with the agreements that allow acceptance of certification between UK and RoI, agreements that have been around for decades. The Kore Passive Slab system (which is the system MBC use) is detailed here: https://www.kore-system.com/kore-products/floor-insulation/kore-passive-slab/what-is-kore-passive-slab and has even won BRE (Building Research Establishment) awards. It has NSAI accreditation for below ground, load bearing, use and there is a formal reciprocal agreement under which the UK accepts NSAI as if it were BBA, and vice versa. The same applies to engineering qualifications. A chartered structural engineer in RoI is considered to be a chartered structural engineer in the UK, again under a reciprocal agreement about qualification standards that's been around for decades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanR Posted December 14, 2023 Author Share Posted December 14, 2023 That's good to know. Advanced Foundation Technology Ltd. did gain European Certification (ETA / EOTA) for their foundation system a few years back, which Building Control accept, so reduces the paperwork needed for sign off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone West Posted December 14, 2023 Share Posted December 14, 2023 Isoquick had LABC approval and certificate, which made it straightforward when we used it. It was in 2010 so it may no longer apply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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