Architectural / technical lighting - how long can a built in LED last?

[Adsibob]

Was about order several Collingwood 1901 downlights/luminaires, which look perfect for our needs, as they come in a choice of colour temp, beam angle and baffle colour and are all dimmable and can be concealed within the plasterwork so that the only part of the fitting which is visible is the bit emitting the light, not the housing around it.

But then I  noticed: “ NB. Contains built in LED lamps which cannot be changed.”

 

As these lights are imbedded in the plasterwork, when the bulb eventually goes, we would have to replaster the local area of ceiling. We wouldn’t need to repaint, as we are leaving the plaster bare (it’s a textured clay based plaster that is decorative, so there is no paint on the ceiling.

 

The lights come with a 7 year warranty, and at £66 a pop, are quite a bit more expensive than a standard downlight, so u would hope they last a really long time. But how long can I expect a good quality dimmable LED to last?

[Ferdinand]

Also relevant is how many, as the failure probabilities are multiplied together.

[Adsibob]

6 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

Also relevant is how many, as the failure probabilities are multiplied together.

I need about 7. Replastering wouldn’t be terrible, I guess. I would make a note of the diameter of the bit imbedded in the plaster work, measure and cut it out with a Stanley knife, then replace and replaster. But if a pain though.

 Could they really last 15 years plus?

[Temp]

LED diodes operated within spec and temperature can last 30,000 hours. If used for 6 hours a day thats near 20 years.

 

The problem is knowing if the fitting operates the diodes in spec and at a reasonable temperature. Some designers use fewer or smaller LED in the fitting and push more current through them to get the brightness back. This makes them cheaper than they would otherwise be but reduces life expectancy as they are stressed more. I suspect the expensive branded models are well designed but who knows apart from the designer. Are they expensive because they use decent spec LEDs or to pay for the warranty claims they expect? 

 

Some of the cheap LEDs are so much cheaper you could afford to replace them 2 or 3 times over and by the time they fail they might be cheaper still to replace (replastering aside).

 

Depends on your attitude to risk. 

Edited October 23, 2021 by Temp

[Adsibob]

I have found an alternative which uses removable GU10 bulbs. Can anybody recommend a really good brand of dimmable GU10 that is 3000k and come in a choice of 12 degree and 24 degree beam angles?

[Ferdinand]

10 hours ago, Adsibob said:

I need about 7. Replastering wouldn’t be terrible, I guess. I would make a note of the diameter of the bit imbedded in the plaster work, measure and cut it out with a Stanley knife, then replace and replaster. But if a pain though.

 Could they really last 15 years plus?

 

I was referring to the several inside each unit on your original option.

[Ferdinand]

On reliabilty and MTTF, the only number I have is a general one -  that I installed 60+ Ikea spots in my house in 2013 at £4 each, and I have only had to replace <5 since.

 

Took me 5+ years to go through the 2 or 3 spares I bought at the time.

Ferdinand

[TonyT]

Why make your life difficult

get a light fitting that has the ability to change a lamp without replastering  and repainting the ceiling.

time is precious enough without that.

[Adsibob]

5 minutes ago, TonyT said:

Why make your life difficult

get a light fitting that has the ability to change a lamp without replastering  and repainting the ceiling.

time is precious enough without that.

Yes, you are right. Hence the alternative:

https://www.corston.com/collections/plaster-spotlights/products/albion-spot-light-fixed-ar11-plaster
Now I need to find a 300k dimmable GU10 that comes in different beam angles.

 

[ProDave]

I would not have a light fitting that has a fixed lamp.  It is now getting harder to buy the humble downlighters with replacable lamps.

[MJNewton]

2 hours ago, Adsibob said:

I have found an alternative which uses removable GU10 bulbs. Can anybody recommend a really good brand of dimmable GU10 that is 3000k and come in a choice of 12 degree and 24 degree beam angles?

 

That's quite a narrow beam angle for a GU10 so you might struggle. The best GU10s I've found, bar none, are the Civilight CLs from Well Lit due to their 'dim to warm' functionality which we like, high CRI (>95) and low dimming ability. Expensive though at £14 a go but it finally put an end to our seemingly endless search for an incandescent replacement that by that point I stopped caring about the cost. They offer a year's no-quibble returns policy so I felt it risk free to try them out. Nine months on we'll definitely be keeping them. Might be worth seeing what others they offer in case any fit your requirements? 

 

P.S. Ikea Ledare are a great value cheap alternative, but their dimming performance isn't great due to non-linear colour change and risk of buzzing (at least with Varilight V-Pro dimmers which are generally regarded as being amongst the best). 

Edited October 24, 2021 by MJNewton

[Adsibob]

6 hours ago, MJNewton said:

 

That's quite a narrow beam angle for a GU10 so you might struggle. The best GU10s I've found, bar none, are the Civilight CLs from Well Lit due to their 'dim to warm' functionality which we like, high CRI (>95) and low dimming ability. Expensive though at £14 a go but it finally put an end to our seemingly endless search for an incandescent replacement that by that point I stopped caring about the cost. They offer a year's no-quibble returns policy so I felt it risk free to try them out. Nine months on we'll definitely be keeping them. Might be worth seeing what others they offer in case any fit your requirements? 

 

P.S. Ikea Ledare are a great value cheap alternative, but their dimming performance isn't great due to non-linear colour change and risk of buzzing (at least with Varilight V-Pro dimmers which are generally regarded as being amongst the best). 

Thanks @MJNewton but unfortunately that won't meet our colour temperature requirement of 3000k. We are using 2700k outside, but inside everything is 3000k.

£14 a pop is cheap compared to the cost of a Soraa GU10 3000K bulb (also available in 2700K): https://lamptwist.com/en/product/soraa-gu10-vivid-color/#/2117-bulb_gu10-soraa_25/1275-kelvin-3000k the thing I like it is that apart from coming in two different colours, one can also choose between three different beam angles. I find that when combining wall lights and downlights, if the downlight beam is too wide, it ruins the light from the wall light.

[Temp]

13 hours ago, Adsibob said:

I have found an alternative which uses removable GU10 bulbs. Can anybody recommend a really good brand of dimmable GU10 that is 3000k and come in a choice of 12 degree and 24 degree beam angles?

 

That's quite a narrow angle. I currently have 12 gu10 in our kitchen and prefer much wider beam angles 90-120 degrees. Fewer shadows and less "spotty" but bit more glare. Problem is finding them. Most DIY sheds only stock 38 degree.

[dpmiller]

would you actually see a difference between 2700 and 3000K?

[Adsibob]

10 minutes ago, dpmiller said:

would you actually see a difference between 2700 and 3000K?

My architect tells me I will. Now that he had told me, I probably will notice. 3000K is more than 10% cooler than 2700K, so probably.

[joth]

New legislation came into force this month that in theory requires light fittings to be replacable with commonly available tools, and include instructions on  how to replace the light source.

 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2021/1095/regulation/6/made#top

 

From my Lighting designers FB page:

 

Good news! The Ecodesign for Energy Related Products and Energy Information (Lighting Products) Regulations 2021 is coming into force tomorrow (1st October 2021). This includes light fittings containing one or more sources and/or a separate control gear. From tomorrow lighting manufacturer's will have to ensure their products meet technical and legal requirements. 1. LED lamps and gears will have to comply which means more energy efficient products and higher colour rendering. 2. LED lamps and gear should be replaceable with commonly available tools and without permanent damage to the luminaire 3. Lighting manufacturers' must provide access to information on how to disassemble fittings for replacement of light sources and control gear, and for responsible disassembly at the end of life.

Edited October 25, 2021 by joth