Extension Design Feedback

[jayc89]

Yeah, that’s looking much better!

 

I wouldn’t say happy, but appreciate when extending, and when you don’t have that blank canvas sometimes you have to compromise.

 

We did consider pulling the snug wall in slightly to extend the hallway around the stairs that way, but there’s complexity there too as the wall to move is solid so would need supporting, the DPM laps up the existing wall so would need patching and the UFH loops are already in place there. Nothing insurmountable, but complex.

 

Other than doing the above, again, with naive eyes, I don’t see a better solution, do you?

[LaCurandera]

If it's an old staircase, is it quite tall? Is there space underneath it to punch through an opening from the hallway in to the open plan area?

Then you could also save the door from the snug to the kitchen. 

Outside option is to replace the stairs, but in situ, so they return back up to the first floor in the same gap, but return in more of a U shape (so likely in the middle of that area), giving space for a door(s) to the right side (next to utility) and then you could get a near straight through front-to-back line of site from the front door

 

Edited January 28, 2022 by LaCurandera

[LaCurandera]

Something like this:

So you maintain the gallery landing down in to that space, the stairs face the door and you reclaim some wall space for the kitchen and no need to have a door to the snug. 


 

[jayc89]

Hopefully, our final set of drawings have just landed. What does everyone think?

 

[Iceverge]

There's an elephant in the room here. 

 

The ground floor plan is very compromised. If you build it as such it'll always feel like an extension that someone couldn't afford to do properly. The door through the kitchen and/or the utility is going to make it feel like two houses.

 

In my opinion you have 3 options. 

 

1. Drive a proper hallway along the south through the living room like my first drawing. 

 

2. Relocate the stairs as per @LaCuranderasuggestion. 

 

3. Make a new entrance and hallway along the north side of the house that ultimately goes through what you have labeled Utility.

 

 

 

 

 

[AliG]

1 hour ago, Iceverge said:

There's an elephant in the room here. 

 

The ground floor plan is very compromised. If you build it as such it'll always feel like an extension that someone couldn't afford to do properly. The door through the kitchen and/or the utility is going to make it feel like two houses.

 

In my opinion you have 3 options. 

 

1. Drive a proper hallway along the south through the living room like my first drawing. 

 

2. Relocate the stairs as per @LaCuranderasuggestion. 

 

3. Make a new entrance and hallway along the north side of the house that ultimately goes through what you have labeled Utility.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't want to be harsh, but I agree.

 

I started to write up a long response previously but didn't manage to finish it and lost it.

 

I think the thing I most don't like is having to go through multiple rooms to get to the WC. It will be a real pain from the lounge. I would have the WC and an extra door into the kitchen where the utility room is and the utility next to the boot room.

 

Does the boot room not have a door because it has a south facing window? If it really is a boot room full of coats etc I would want a door. In such a large house I wouldn't want people to be coming effectively directly into the living room from outside.

 

I would make the living room a smaller study and knock the hall through so that the door into the kitchen is in the hall, if that is possible (as drawn by @Iceverge previously). I would think it is as there is already a door and glass panel there. You can do this as you have another lounge plus a big open kitchen family room now.

 

Have you considered does the new door have to be at the back and not the side? I would think it would be better to have the boot room/utility space where the kitchen is with a side door and the kitchen at the back so it can have windows to the garden. It is a bit hemmed in at the moment.

 

Upstairs the main thing I would change is making that narrow ensuite wider. 900mm is not a pleasant width for an en suite.

[AliG]

Very rough suggestion.

 

Personally with 6 bedrooms I would look to put a laundry room upstairs, but that would require a lot of changes.

 

It might be possible to do matching symmetrical arches on each side of the hall with this design.

 

The dining room could have a door towards the kitchen and at the side towards the hall.

 

 

 

 

[jayc89]

I see what you mean, I think I've been over indexing on making the most of the opportunity to have south-facing windows, plus the garages are to the west so I had been trying to keep the utility/porch/boot room door as near to there as possible.

 

I had also been trying to avoid bringing the dining room wall in, for a couple of reasons;

- If we knock that wall down there will be a gap/cold area in the new hallway where UFH loops are missing, plus we'll have to fix the DPM where the wall once was.

- We've just had some pretty expensive cornice fitted to the existing dining room, part of which would need removing and making right if we knock that wall down.

 

Assuming we're willing to bite the bullet on the above points I think something like this would work;

 

 

The Utility Room and Boot Room + W/C are pretty much interchangeable, I still can't decide which way around would best best, but I don't think their exact location would impact our planning application at this point either.

 

The most obvious downside that I can see is the Dining Room is now at the opposite end of the house.

 

There is something quite poetic about putting the entrance to the side. We have an old picture of the house (from ~ 1900, we think) and the original (kitchen, we think) door was in that area, where the existing dining room is/proposed office will be;

 

Edited February 6, 2022 by jayc89

[Iceverge]

A very handsome house. What a privilege to get to have it.

 

I might have a go at another design, beware it can take a few hours. 

 

This corner is also bugging me. 

 

I don’t think it fits with design of what is a nice square building. 

 

Also it makes the roof unnecessarily complex, will probably introduce lots of thermal bridging through the steelwork, and the bifolds will be drafty and expensive. You can have non drafty but then they’re extra extra expensive.

 

French doors or sliders would be better. 

 

 

 

[jayc89]

The house does have a certain symmetry to it right now, especially towards the front where it hasn't been modified over the years. We're really wanting to strike a balance between respecting the property's history (i.e. not wanting to move/replace the staircase) and adapting it to modern living.

 

Excuse the terrible editing (and poor quality Google Maps image!). Green line is the boundary, red the proposed extension and blue our closest neighbour. Our architect is suggesting the angle in that corner will be needed as to not overlook the neighbour's rear garden too much. It's also quite nice to focus attention across the garden, rather than directly to the rear of the property (which is a view of the garages!).

 

 

I expect the doors will actually be sliding AluClad. We plan to put all the windows back to sash (terrible 80's upvc at the minute) and I think AluClad will be the best compromise between traditional looking and thermal efficiency. 

[Iceverge]

 

4 hours ago, jayc89 said:

I had also been trying to avoid bringing the dining room wall in, for a couple of reasons;

- If we knock that wall down there will be a gap/cold area in the new hallway where UFH loops are missing, plus we'll have to fix the DPM where the wall once was.

- We've just had some pretty expensive cornice fitted to the existing dining room, part of which would need removing and making right if we knock that wall down.

 

Assuming we're willing to bite the bullet on the above points I think something like this would work;

 

It's a matter of a couple of thousand maximum. Well worth it. 

 

Here's a similar effort to yours. I've made  a separate utility and a walk though boot room/porch. I think this would be nicer than the design you had. More suitable for a main entrance. 

 

Your kitchen location might be better however. 

 

I don't know if the window to the north I've included will work with obstacles/views. A quick internet price up shows the French doors with fixed side panels costing 45% of the equivilant bifolds with much better performance. 

 

 

[Iceverge]

1 hour ago, jayc89 said:

The house does have a certain symmetry to it right now, especially towards the front where it hasn't been modified over the years. We're really wanting to strike a balance between respecting the property's history (i.e. not wanting to move/replace the staircase) and adapting it to modern living.

 

Excuse the terrible editing (and poor quality Google Maps image!). Green line is the boundary, red the proposed extension and blue our closest neighbour. Our architect is suggesting the angle in that corner will be needed as to not overlook the neighbour's rear garden too much. It's also quite nice to focus attention across the garden, rather than directly to the rear of the property (which is a view of the garages!)

 

 

I've just seen this now. 

 

The window I've drawn to the north is probably looking at nothing so. 

[ETC]

On 17/01/2022 at 15:35, jayc89 said:

It's been a while since I've posted on here. Our planning permission got knocked back on the grounds of it being too dominant in relation to our neighbour. Given the site plans, I'm not convinced that is the case, but rather than going down the route of appealing, we're back to the drawing board, so to speak.

 

The council requested the extension be reduced by at least 3m so our architect is suggesting we do that, but build out the full width of the existing property instead so we don't actually lose that as floor space. Something like this;

 

 

Key points;

• The extension is stepped in 0.5m from the existing property because our boundary also slopes in, so this gives us enough width to still get a car (and wagons, during construction) to the rear of the property
• The extension footprint is actually bigger now, the first floor is arguably too large to accommodate what we want on the ground floor, resulting in a 6th bedroom being added, just to fill the space, really.

 

As ever, your feedback is greatly appreciated!

 

@jayc89

 

I’ve been reading this  post for a while with some interest. I’m really not surprised you got knocked back by the Planners - this house and extension is a monster.

 

I think you need to look at the overall massing of the house with the extension - the overall impression really is massive and you should look at physically and visually separating the original house and the new extension.

 

Look at retaining the original structure and adding on a sympathetic extension rather than just filling the width of the house with something as overpowering as you are currently proposing.

 

The original building looks quite wonderful and I’d go as far as saying that you really should consider taking the building back to it’s original form and then adding a contemporary extension - something that’s not a pastiche and without that dreadful 45 degree corner cut-off which makes absolutely no sense and will only add additional and unnecessary expense.

 

I really think you have a fantastic opportunity to do something quite wonderful with this building - I don’t think the current proposal is it though.

 

Sorry for being harsh but I think your designers should rethink their proposal. 

 

 

[ETC]

On 05/02/2022 at 09:41, jayc89 said:

Hopefully, our final set of drawings have just landed. What does everyone think?

 

If these were prepared by an Architect I’m a monkey’s uncle - terrible - ask for your money back!

 

Click the link below!

 

https://architects-register.org.uk

[jayc89]

9 hours ago, Iceverge said:

 

 

It's a matter of a couple of thousand maximum. Well worth it. 

 

Here's a similar effort to yours. I've made  a separate utility and a walk though boot room/porch. I think this would be nicer than the design you had. More suitable for a main entrance. 

 

Your kitchen location might be better however. 

 

I don't know if the window to the north I've included will work with obstacles/views. A quick internet price up shows the French doors with fixed side panels costing 45% of the equivilant bifolds with much better performance. 

 

 

Agreed, I don't think it's a million miles away either. I assume the room to the north is the accessible shower room with the utility and boot room to the south? I did toy with having the sofas/TV in the south/west corner, the reason I ended up putting the kitchen there instead was because there'd be arguably too much light for a TV and it's a bit daft to be closing blinds, restricting all that light just to watch some junk on TV

 

One big benefit of putting the kitchen where it's located in your plan is being able to hide the underneath of the new flight of stairs with a tall kitchen unit.
 

9 hours ago, Iceverge said:

 

 

I've just seen this now. 

 

The window I've drawn to the north is probably looking at nothing so. 

Sorry, that's my mistake, I should have been clearer earlier on. The architect and to be fair, the planning officer seem to share similar concerns around this point.

 

9 hours ago, ETC said:

@jayc89

 

I’ve been reading this  post for a while with some interest. I’m really not surprised you got knocked back by the Planners - this house and extension is a monster.

 

I think you need to look at the overall massing of the house with the extension - the overall impression really is massive and you should look at physically and visually separating the original house and the new extension.

 

Look at retaining the original structure and adding on a sympathetic extension rather than just filling the width of the house with something as overpowering as you are currently proposing.

 

The original building looks quite wonderful and I’d go as far as saying that you really should consider taking the building back to it’s original form and then adding a contemporary extension - something that’s not a pastiche and without that dreadful 45 degree corner cut-off which makes absolutely no sense and will only add additional and unnecessary expense.

 

I really think you have a fantastic opportunity to do something quite wonderful with this building - I don’t think the current proposal is it though.

 

Sorry for being harsh but I think your designers should rethink their proposal. 

 

 

 

I don't think we're averse to having a clear separation. I some times worry I was too restrictive in my requirements which has resulted in the current plans. However in reality the only requirement we've really had is to focus attention at the rear of the property to the north/west where our lawn is situated, away from the garage at the rear of the house (west) and drive running along the south.

 

I think part of the problem we now have is we've become numb to the existing plans/style so are struggling to vision what something different would look like - we're only doing it once, it's a pretty special house in the area (IMO) so we want to do it right.

 

9 hours ago, ETC said:

If these were prepared by an Architect I’m a monkey’s uncle - terrible - ask for your money back!

 

Click the link below!

 

https://architects-register.org.uk

 

I'm not expert in these things so please excuse my naivety. What's so concerning in the plans that make you question the architect's credentials?

Edited February 7, 2022 by jayc89

[bassanclan]

16 minutes ago, jayc89 said:

I'm not expert in these things so please excuse my naivety. What's so concerning in the plans that make you question the architect's credentials?

 

The 45 degree is clumsy and looks a bit like a diy design. Have you chosen the architect based on a successful back catalogue of past work on similar period properties?

[jayc89]

7 minutes ago, bassanclan said:

 

The 45 degree is clumsy and looks a bit like a diy design. Have you chosen the architect based on a successful back catalogue of past work on similar period properties?

 

The angle was something we raised a few times, it's acceptable in the open-plan area but feels like it cuts off too much in the master bedroom - however I was told it would be needed to mitigate the problem of overlooking our neighbour on the north side. It's certainly not something we're keen to protect in any future re-design if those concerns could be mitigated in other ways.

Our BCO, who has overseen other renovation work to the property, recommended a handful of architects when we mentioned the possibility of extending to him. We spoke with the majority of them, plus some we found ourselves, and chose the one whose work we liked, albeit not on period style properties, and who we thought understood the brief the best. Perhaps I'm just a terrible judge of character? 

[ETC]

3 hours ago, jayc89 said:

Agreed, I don't think it's a million miles away either. I assume the room to the north is the accessible shower room with the utility and boot room to the south? I did toy with having the sofas/TV in the south/west corner, the reason I ended up putting the kitchen there instead was because there'd be arguably too much light for a TV and it's a bit daft to be closing blinds, restricting all that light just to watch some junk on TV

 

One big benefit of putting the kitchen where it's located in your plan is being able to hide the underneath of the new flight of stairs with a tall kitchen unit.
 

Sorry, that's my mistake, I should have been clearer earlier on. The architect and to be fair, the planning officer seem to share similar concerns around this point.

 

 

I don't think we're averse to having a clear separation. I some times worry I was too restrictive in my requirements which has resulted in the current plans. However in reality the only requirement we've really had is to focus attention at the rear of the property to the north/west where our lawn is situated, away from the garage at the rear of the house (west) and drive running along the south.

 

I think part of the problem we now have is we've become numb to the existing plans/style so are struggling to vision what something different would look like - we're only doing it once, it's a pretty special house in the area (IMO) so we want to do it right.

 

 

I'm not expert in these things so please excuse my naivety. What's so concerning in the plans that make you question the architect's credentials?

Everything - including how it’s drafted up. Did you click the link?

[AliG]

Sorry, I feel we are bombarding you a bit here, but I do think it stems from what seems to be a poor effort on the part of the architect and I hope we are helping. The plans are unimaginative. However, it may be that he has been given a very tight brief and not wanted to diverge from it.

 

I think your slightly redone version of my drawing also works well(copied below). It gets the WC down towards the front of the house. I do think if you could get matching archways at each side of the hall it might be nice, otherwise open it up on the left hand side.

 

Assuming that the dining room is little used, then the distance from the kitchen is not a problem and it is a straight shot.

 

As to the angle on the corner. I presume that the overlooking issue is upstairs. Downstairs windows usually don't matter and you currently have a window looking towards the neighbour, although further away.

 

I can see you want to take advantage of the view, but I had a good look at the elevations having read people's comments. Why not just have windows facing north and west in the kitchen, but only west in the master bedroom. That way you can square off the corner, which I do think matches better the rest of the house, and will especially help the look of the roof.

 

I would also bring in the wall on the north side another 0.5m so that it is more clearly an extension and looms less over next door, the roof would be slightly lowered by this. I think you could lose that much space easily.

 

I don't know how difficult it would be, but considering the style of house and the fact that you are losing what must be a very nice window on the stairs I would look to replace it with a skylight or cupola centred right in the middle of the square formed by the staircase. This is more in keeping with the style of the house and you will need this light in the front hall which will be very dark. Offsetting this, en suites don't need sun pipes. You could do away with them, just have the lights come on using a PIR. So lose 5 sun pipes, add one nice large skylight. Initially when we designed our house I told the architect to make sure the en suites had windows, but during the design process we did away with most of them and don't really notice at all.

 

Final point, but having had a look at the elevations and with the picture you provided of the house, what was the architect thinking with that little canopy at the back and the two full height windows in the master bedroom. It would be so out of keeping, The door on the side really is the way to go. Much more in the style of the house. Look at the beautiful symmetry of the front of the house, the current rear elevation is very poor. Did you ask for full height windows in the bedroom? They look very strange.

 

 

 

[jayc89]

Quote

As to the angle on the corner. I presume that the overlooking issue is upstairs. Downstairs windows usually don't matter and you currently have a window looking towards the neighbour, although further away.

I believe it's the upstairs which is the concern, yes. My understanding is, because of the way the boundary runs (curved) the angled window is actually facing our garden, rather than directly into the neighbours garden if there were any downstairs on the north face.

 

Quote

I can see you want to take advantage of the view, but I had a good look at the elevations having read people's comments. Why not just have windows facing north and west in the kitchen, but only west in the master bedroom. That way you can square off the corner, which I do think matches better the rest of the house, and will especially help the look of the roof.

I did have similar thoughts, when I asked I was told "Squaring off the extension makes the impact worse on the neighboring properties which is what the planning officer is concerned about.  ... the squaring off adds another 2.5m which the angle took away."

 

Quote

I don't know how difficult it would be, but considering the style of house and the fact that you are losing what must be a very nice window on the stairs I would look to replace it with a skylight or cupola centred right in the middle of the square formed by the staircase. This is more in keeping with the style of the house and you will need this light in the front hall which will be very dark.

 

This was a concern of ours too, we did toy with the idea, in fact some of the original plans on this thread included sky lights in various locations. I think the main problem with doing that over the staircase with the design as is, would be the new roof being so large there's no room centrally on the original roof to do that now. The sun pipes were to help offset that loss of light, but I agree, direct natural light would be far better.

 

Quote

Final point, but having had a look at the elevations and with the picture you provided of the house, what was the architect thinking with that little canopy at the back and the two full height windows in the master bedroom. It would be so out of keeping, The door on the side really is the way to go. Much more in the style of the house. Look at the beautiful symmetry of the front of the house, the current rear elevation is very poor. Did you ask for full height windows in the bedroom? They look very strange.

I don't know where those full height windows came from, originally it was another massive pane of glass, similar dimensions to the doors, which I asked to be replaced with windows.

 

Thanks for the detailed feedback, @AliG. I think all in all, we need to go back to the drawing board on some of these points.

[Iceverge]

There's a win here I'm sure of it. 

 

From not only this extension, but many others contributers, it's apparent Architects often are faced with an impossible set of requirements which often cannot be met. Perhaps a part of the skill of the job is to kindly communicate how the customer is not always right.

 

Contrary to @ETC would be keen to retain a similar style in this example.  A bolt on contemporary extension would feel like my granny wearing bling trainers, but that's just my taste I suppose. However I do think there's a good market for architects presenting balanced functional non flashy design. 

 

Personally I think you're very close with the downstairs at least. On reflection the utility and W/C are better off as per your suggestion. 

 

I like @AliGs though of recessing the wall 0.5 as well as the skylights. I've always though sun pipes were a little naff .

 

Fair play for sticking with us. It can be bruising to put your design out to the masses for digestion.

[CharlieKLP]

Is this another case of the client doing designs and the ‘designer’ (this can’t possibly be an architect?) just doing what you say and taking your money.

 

You have a lovely existing house please don’t do this or let this designer scam you. Find someone half good and stop drawing things yourself.

[jayc89]

I don't think something like this would be a million miles away;

 

 

The sun pipes were originally in the ensuites as I know they can act as extractors too, however, having double checked the Velux site, apparently that's only the case if they're fitted to tile roofs and ours is slate! I would much prefer sky lights, we did briefly discuss it, making the ceiling over the staircase "vaulted", there were concerns around the expense of doing so, strengthening the existing joists etc and given the size of the new roof, would there be space to do that now?

 

6 minutes ago, CharlieKLP said:

Is this another case of the client doing designs and the ‘designer’ (this can’t possibly be an architect?) just doing what you say and taking your money.

 

You have a lovely existing house please don’t do this or let this designer scam you. Find someone half good and stop drawing things yourself.

 

It's possibly the case. I don't think the brief was too prescriptive, but I do find it easier to describe things in pictures rather than words and more recently it seems like I send a plan across to try explain something and I get a converted version of it back again - this very much was not my intention, I'm paying for someone's expertise, not just to follow instruction.

 

In a similar vein, it's very much why I've drawn the above, to confirm what has been discussed here before making suggestions to my architect, but again I want his opinion too, not just to make my design work - I'm under no illusion, my drawings are terrible!

[CharlieKLP]

Customers keep saying to me ‘my drawings are terrible’! 
 

No, they aren’t, the fact that you’re drawing is terrible!!!

 

Please let them make suggestions to you, that’s what you’re paying for. Designing yourself results in them being lazy and not thinking, if you sent me this I’d just copy it and look for something more interesting to do.

 

 

Edited February 7, 2022 by CharlieKLP

[ETC]

@Iceverge

 

Contrary to @ETC would be keen to retain a similar style in this example.  A bolt on contemporary extension would feel like my granny wearing bling trainers, but that's just my taste I suppose. However I do think there's a good market for architects presenting balanced functional non flashy design.

Plenty of great examples out there where a good imagination has enabled an old building to be extended with a contemporary extension. Is there anything wrong with your granny wearing bling trainers?

https://thecoolhunter.net/old-is-new-again/

https://www.wowhaus.co.uk/2014/09/21/on-the-market-award-winning-19th-century-martello-tower-conversion-in-bawdsey-suffolk/

 

Personally I think you're very close with the downstairs at least. On reflection the utility and W/C are better off as per your suggestion.

Not even a million miles close. If I’ve ever seen a bolt on job this is it. Bland and unimaginative.