Installation Deadline for ASHP for RHI

[Andehh]

Hi All,

 

We are looking to install ASHP, but are aware of the deadline in March 2022 for the current round of RHI payments. We are not looking to complete the build until mid June though.

 

Does anyone know what the threshold is to pass, in order to register for the RHI payments? is it paperwork only, or does the system need to be installed, or does it need to be installed & commissioned etc?

 

Welcome any advice.

 

Thank you,

[IanR]

You have to submit your paperwork by midnight 31.03.2022.

 

To get all the paperwork together the system will need to have been commissioned and the invoice paid.

[joth]

Do you planning to have a backup source for heating and DHE? (E.g. immersion heaters in the buffer tank and UVC)

If so, maybe just leave the ashp until later next year. No doubt there will be a panic buying in the lead up to  March with price increases, supply shortages and substandard rushed installs . Late summer there could be good discounts available as installers try and drum back up work, and in addition you won't be beholden to RHI constraints so might get a better end system. (e.g. if cooling is required, installers can't use the antiquated RHI excuse to not enable it)

If your house is well insulated you won't need heating until October, and many here muddle by without an ashp for one winter (or indefinitely)

 

 

 

[IanR]

13 minutes ago, joth said:

(e.g. if cooling is required, installers can't use the antiquated RHI excuse to not enable it)

 

ASHP cooling is allowed on RHI. Rules changed at the end of 2017. Although many installers seem to be unaware.

[joth]

2 hours ago, IanR said:

 

ASHP cooling is allowed on RHI. Rules changed at the end of 2017. Although many installers seem to be unaware.

Correct, but even this summer my MCS installer still thought it triggered the "metering for payment" clause though, so wouldn't enable it. (I enabled it myself)

My point being with the end of RHI hopefully they'll get over it and start designing systems to customer needs, rather than RHI needs.

(I'd be fine if he'd charged a bit more for cooling. The extra work on completely insulating all pipes, pumps etc and getting condensate drains in isn't zero effort)

Edited September 26, 2021 by joth

[Andehh]

Thanks all builder starts in 3 weeks for a 8 month build, contract signed & prices fixed.

 

Probably will have back up, but with contract in place delaying ashp for some savings complicates things. Also very young children in the family! 

 

I'll have to have a chat with him how he intends to support us with the RHI side of things! Could be close getting it commissioned by March 31st! we will see.

Edited September 26, 2021 by Andehh

[joth]

14 hours ago, Andehh said:

Probably will have back up, but with contract in place delaying ashp for some savings complicates things.

To clarify, I'm definitely not suggesting delay the ashp to make a financial saving, I'm saying give up on trying to install it by March to achieve a massive stress saving.

Unless you have a tame MCS ASHP installer in your pocket that will work exactly to your schedule, my experience was whatever you plan, they'll work on a very different timescale.

 

[IainH]

On 26/09/2021 at 08:22, IanR said:

You have to submit your paperwork by midnight 31.03.2022.

 

To get all the paperwork together the system will need to have been commissioned and the invoice paid.

Would anyone have a link to a step by step guide to the submission process please?

 

TIA

 

Iain

[IanR]

3 minutes ago, IainH said:

Would anyone have a link to a step by step guide to the submission process please?

 

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/environmental-and-social-schemes/domestic-renewable-heat-incentive-domestic-rhi/applicants

[IainH]

18 minutes ago, IanR said:

 

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/environmental-and-social-schemes/domestic-renewable-heat-incentive-domestic-rhi/applicants

 

Thank you. ?

[MortarThePoint]

I don't know if there has been much confirmation, but looks like the new £5,000 scheme is not available to new builds:
     "The grant won't, however, be available to those in social housing and new-build properties at launch."

     https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2021/10/government-to-offer-p5-000-grant-per-household-to-help-them-repl/

 

This is bad news for anyone worried about the RHI deadline next March.

[IanR]

I suspect you're right, certainly from 2025. HP installs will drop with selfbuids if they don't offer some incentive from 2022, the Regs change isn't sufficient to force HP installs from 2022.

 

Current RHI isn't intended for new builds, but self builds are allowed. Maybe the new grant will be the same from 2022-2025.

[MortarThePoint]

23 minutes ago, IanR said:

I suspect you're right, certainly from 2025. HP installs will drop with selfbuids if they don't offer some incentive from 2022, the Regs change isn't sufficient to force HP installs from 2022.

 

Current RHI isn't intended for new builds, but self builds are allowed. Maybe the new grant will be the same from 2022-2025.

 

I can imagine an unfortunate time gap opening up between the two schemes for new builds though unfortunately.

 

I have spoken to installers that loath the MCS/RHI scheme and say how much it jacks up the cost. There's the danger the new scheme will just be the same nightmare. One installer has said he's considered abandoning doing ASHP installations because of the MCS.

[Andehh]

Thanks all! Our project was originally a full refurb & large extension. We got the planning permission for this. 

 

At the last minute builder advised he could do a full knock down & rebuild for the same money. We are now going down to the this route. We have just submitted a new planning application for a full rebuild... And the builder will spend the next few months starting the extension and LEAVING the bungalow until planning is in. 

 

The new build will be very similar orientation to the existing bungalow, plant room in an identical area. 

 

With the submission for RHI, what stops me installing ASHP into the existing bungalow.... Commissioning it... Getting RHI then decommissioning knock down, rebuild, reconnect... Crack on? 

 

ASHP location doesn't change, plant room doesn't change just connecting & disconnecting it from the existing bungalow? 

 

Existing bungalow, 1960s timber frame, is EPC B, 85 (epc done last year) 

 

is there anything in the RHI application that would block this? 

Edited October 23, 2021 by Andehh

[Conor]

So are you building an extension, then demolishing the existing bungalow, and building a new structure and connecting it to the extension? I doubt HMRC will see that as a new build and you won't be able to claim VAT back. I'd leave everything as it is until you get planning and do a proper demolition and rebuild so there is no doubt.

[Hobbiniho]

4 hours ago, Andehh said:

With the submission for RHI, what stops me installing ASHP into the existing bungalow.... Commissioning it... Getting RHI then decommissioning knock down, rebuild, reconnect... Crack on? 

 

ASHP location doesn't change, plant room doesn't change just connecting & disconnecting it from the existing bungalow? 

 

Existing bungalow, 1960s timber frame, is EPC B, 85 (epc done last year) 

 

is there anything in the RHI application that would block this? 

 

As part of your ongoing obligations you have to tell them if your heating system stops working, theres also a clause about the days of occupancy aswell, im pretty sure the demolition of the property the heating system is in will cause a stop to payments

 

I recently had a request for some "missing" documentation from 2 years ago along with the standard threat of "we will stop your payments if you dont privide us with this documentation", they were applogetic when i forwarded them the email chain with the correct info from 2 years ago when i made the application

[Andehh]

With experienced builder & experienced architect firm I'm just following them tbh, builder is on site already.

 

8 months from now the existing bungalow will have been 100% demolished & replaced with a 100% new one, with all the documentation submitted to boot!

 

Whether we do it right to left, or left to right it's still a full knock down & rebuild? Where would HMRC have an issue? 

[Andehh]

11 minutes ago, Hobbiniho said:

 

As part of your ongoing obligations you have to tell them if your heating system stops working, theres also a clause about the days of occupancy aswell, im pretty sure the demolition of the property the heating system is in will cause a stop to payments

 

I recently had a request for some "missing" documentation from 2 years ago along with the standard threat of "we will stop your payments if you dont privide us with this documentation", they were applogetic when i forwarded them the email chain with the correct info from 2 years ago when i made the application

Thanks, I figured there would be something like that that.... 6 month occupancy would be tight to cover! Was just a brainwave at 4am for me 

[joth]

5 hours ago, Andehh said:

Where would HMRC have an issue? 

Can they not ask for photographic or other evidence of the site clear with zero structure on it above ground level? If you've already built the new extension it'll be much harder to prove the old property was indeed fully demolished. Otherwise anyone with a newish extension could also know down the old part of a house only, and claim that now the whole thing has been rebuilt vs the original build. Sounds like Trigger's broom.

Given this topic started with a worry about missing out on a £7000 grant, I'd be much more worried about staying entirely above board to secure the (guess) £50,000 of VAT saving. 

[Bob77]

On 22/10/2021 at 08:31, MortarThePoint said:

I don't know if there has been much confirmation, but looks like the new £5,000 scheme is not available to new builds:
     "The grant won't, however, be available to those in social housing and new-build properties at launch."

     https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2021/10/government-to-offer-p5-000-grant-per-household-to-help-them-repl/

 

This is bad news for anyone worried about the RHI deadline next March.

 

What about installing ASHPs as a replacement for non-gas heating systems? I currently have electric storage heaters and am looking at installing central heating with UFH when building an extension next year.

[Andehh]

Thanks for the comments guys, I'll raise it with the architect & builder (both very experienced in doing new builds) but seeing as it's all on site, kicked off & we're moved out etc... we're committed now. 

 

That being said, with it all being carried out within a continuous 8 month period, same builder, mountain of paperwork (planning, building control stating new build & demolition etc), staged payments, continuous project plan, non-occupancy throughout, I'd suggest HMRC would struggle to evidence this was anything other then that it is... A total/full knock, excavation & new build as planned/documented. 

 

Edit to add, as existing property is a 1960s timber frame & we are going over the top with block & beam, large Mono pitch etc.... There is very little we could reuse even if we wanted to.

Edited October 24, 2021 by Andehh

[IanR]

Are you paying the builder in instalments?

 

If the planning you have at present is for an extension, then the builder will need to charge you VAT for that work. He'll only be able to zero rate the invoices once you have Planning Approved for the demolition and rebuild. You won't be able to recover the VAT charged on the invoices from the builder prior to when you have the new Planning is Approved.

 

The HMRC recommendation for a build that changes from an extension to a demolition and rebuild is that all work stops until the new build planning is in place.

[Andehh]

Thanks guys! I'll raise it with them next week. Both builder & architect have been very professional & by the book to date, so will see what they say. 

[Ferdinand]

On 22/10/2021 at 08:31, MortarThePoint said:

I don't know if there has been much confirmation, but looks like the new £5,000 scheme is not available to new builds:
     "The grant won't, however, be available to those in social housing and new-build properties at launch."

     https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2021/10/government-to-offer-p5-000-grant-per-household-to-help-them-repl/

 

This is bad news for anyone worried about the RHI deadline next March.

 

Certain things require paperwork to be in place before you start.

 

eg CIL exemption, if it is active in your area.

[Ferdinand]

On 22/10/2021 at 08:31, MortarThePoint said:

I don't know if there has been much confirmation, but looks like the new £5,000 scheme is not available to new builds:
     "The grant won't, however, be available to those in social housing and new-build properties at launch."

     https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2021/10/government-to-offer-p5-000-grant-per-household-to-help-them-repl/

 

This is bad news for anyone worried about the RHI deadline next March.

 

It looks logical that it not be available to newbuilds - if it is like most things it is actually done on reduction in carbon emitted, and new builds don't reduce it.

 

Though a technical argument can be made for demo / replace being different.