Timber frame company hopeless

[Haylingbilly]

I have reached the end of my patience with my timber frame supplier. They promised it would take 12 days and we are now going into the 10th week. They have made a catalogue of errors, forgot to order crane, ordered wrong size crane (twice), "let down by crane company" and no crane arrived (three times), sent goods on vehicle which is too large to get into site (lost count), delivery lorry failed MOT at 6 am on the day of delivery. You get the idea.

 

So the frame was finally "completed" last Tuesday but with a number of items needed remediation (over 20). I gave them 7 days to do so but that has now passed and there is still a lot outstanding. One of the dormers was 21cm out, they came today to fix, now it is only 11cm out of alignment. (they were due to fix on Friday but contractors van broke down, then Saturday, then Monday (but "no materials" on site).

 

So I think they are in breach of their contract as have failed to deliver to service to a reasonable standard. I don't want them back on site as I simply can't trust them, and need to get cracking on the build as have lost so much time. My follow on contractor is happy to fix but obviously I need to pay him.

 

I have already funded £2000 of work of which they have promised to deduct half from my final invoice (£5,000), but I have had other costs such as scaffolding which I suspect will be a few thousands for an extra two months, a license agreement to use my neighbours land for access (£400 a week). I think there is another £2,000 - £3,000 of work to get it up to an acceptable standard. So guess, total costs incurred would be in the order of £10,000 vs a final bill "owing" of £5,000.

 

Never mind the countless hours I have spent organising the shambolic bunch of jokers and the associated stress that goes with it.

 

What are peoples views on where I stand contractually on this?

 

 

Edited September 21, 2021 by Andy brown

[SuperJohnG]

Start a daily log, write down everything and map out your incurred costs. 

 

I am in a similar position. What was 4 weeks have been 16 weeks, with 150 remedial items, kit supplier subcontractors had to sack their guy and have admitted liability but its still going to take time. 

 

If its not right stand your ground. 

 

If you have self build insurance you should have legal cover,  talk to them and take advice. 

[Gus Potter]

Andy.

 

No wonder this is causing grief. Here is a suggestion. Mull this over even if just to rule this idea out. It seems like you are getting run ragged.

 

The following suggestion is based on tactics used to deal with say a home warranty provider who is using the fine print to avoid addressing the issues.

 

Take a step back first. Get yourself a "street wise" Stuctural Enginneer. Get them to site for a day.. yes a day and expect to fork out £800.00 -1200 quid. Seems a lot but the SE will spend a few hours thinking time after they have left site.. not that bad. The SE will look to see where the frame is non compliant..and everything else that they can see or even if they "get a smell" they will look at that too. Once an SE is instructed to examine everything..it means anything else that may count as a contributing factor.. they do.. no prisoners!

 

For example the SE will look at all the nail edge distances, plumbing of the frame, the roof trusses, the load paths and how this missalignment of the dormer may be changing the load paths and if the supporting walls are still ok. The ground levels, how the kit is sitting on the founds.. odd stuff that may not seem directly related to the issue.. damp proof membranes, vapour barriers.. tile batten spacing.. the lot! The reason for this is that all these other bit's an bobs contribute to what SE's call "robustness" and this forms part of the design codes.

 

Also, if the say trusses are not sitting where they should be then questions get asked, for example are the connections still ok.. again are the tile batten spacings still compliant with the tile specifications.. it's a big can of worms to defend!

 

Make no mistake if you are an SE and you are instructed to survey a timber frame.. well that is what you do! You don't muck about!

 

The secret here is that once you find a non compliance that impacts on the structural safety of the building you have them over a barrel. What you then say is.. hey you may be quoting me the fine print but you have supplied / erected an unsafe structure.

 

This cuts to the chase as if your SE say's it's not safe they have to do whatever it takes to fix it.. if it goes to court.. the SE stands up and says..they provided an unsafe structure and by that time the HSE will have been notified also, so too they will be chasing them.

 

What I can say is that once you nail them on the structural side they are often keen to negotiate.

 

The next step is up to you. You can try and negotiate a settlement yourself or you can instruct your SE to "have a chat" with your TF supplier. The SE will not "do a deal" on your behalf in terms of the fabric as professionaly they can't compromise on safety. The SE at this point acts as an independant person. To explain. An SE has a duty to public safety, you may sell the house but the liability rests with the SE long after you have gone.

 

However, by acting independantly they will often use some back channels to reach encourage settlement that is equitable. They may for example say to the TF supplier.. well if you don't play ball with me I'm going to recommend to my Client that we get a QS of like mind to me.. no prisoners.. and the bill is going to go up. My Client just wants it sorted and quickly..they are not seeking to punish you but if you keep digging in they may take a different view! These are thing an advisor can say but you as a Client may not be so able to do.

 

Andy.

 

Quite often trusses may not be "quite where they should be" Not all of the trusses will be fully loaded so sometimes you only need to remediate a few, maybe one or two so it's not often a case of the whole lot needs to be taken down.

 

The key here is to find the big stick to bring them to the table and quickly. The above is one possible way of achieving this. Ideally.. resolve it quickly, settle and not spend time trying to get your money after you have moved in. The moving in should be fun and if you have this hanging over your head it kind of spoils it?

 

Lastly the supplier will also be expected to pay any SE fees you have incurred.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ProDave]

My take would be you still owe them £5000.  Make it clear to them that if they try and pursue this e.g. through the small claims court, that you will counter claim all the additional expenses you have incurred due to their delays, mistakes and incompetence, and your counter claim will be for more than their final bill.

[jack1962]

10 hours ago, Andy brown said:

I have reached the end of my patience with my timber frame supplier. They promised it would take 12 days and we are now going into the 10th week. They have made a catalogue of errors, forgot to order crane, ordered wrong size crane (twice), "let down by crane company" and no crane arrived (three times), sent goods on vehicle which is too large to get into site (lost count), delivery lorry failed MOT at 6 am on the day of delivery. You get the idea.

 

So the frame was finally "completed" last Tuesday but with a number of items needed remediation (over 20). I gave them 7 days to do so but that has now passed and there is still a lot outstanding. One of the dormers was 21cm out, they came today to fix, now it is only 11cm out of alignment. (they were due to fix on Friday but contractors van broke down, then Saturday, then Monday (but "no materials" on site).

 

So I think they are in breach of their contract as have failed to deliver to service to a reasonable standard. I don't want them back on site as I simply can't trust them, and need to get cracking on the build as have lost so much time. My follow on contractor is happy to fix but obviously I need to pay him.

 

I have already funded £2000 of work of which they have promised to deduct half from my final invoice (£5,000), but I have had other costs such as scaffolding which I suspect will be a few thousands for an extra two months, a license agreement to use my neighbours land for access (£400 a week). I think there is another £2,000 - £3,000 of work to get it up to an acceptable standard. So guess, total costs incurred would be in the order of £10,000 vs a final bill "owing" of £5,000.

 

Never mind the countless hours I have spent organising the shambolic bunch of jokers and the associated stress that goes with it.

 

What are peoples views on where I stand contractually on this?

 

 

Hi Andy 

I hear your anguish and frustration, i am in a similiar posistion with my build .. and they claim they are professionals. It is a stress ful time and costs do accumulate. I wish you all the best Andy

[Mr Punter]

I am afraid this is all too common.  It is sometimes hard to believe how incompetent some firms are.

 

Do as @SuperJohnG suggests and keep records of everything.  It is no good as evidence to say you "lost count of the times..." Take photos and get separate costs from the follow on contractors for remediation.

 

They won't bother taking you to court for the £5k, especially when you establish your losses to be £10k.

[Dave Jones]

timber frame ....

 

 

Brick and block all day long. Far superior.

[Haylingbilly]

9 hours ago, jack1962 said:

Hi Andy 

I hear your anguish and frustration, i am in a similiar posistion with my build .. and they claim they are professionals. It is a stress ful time and costs do accumulate. I wish you all the best Andy

Sorry to hear that too - best of luck with your build

[Haylingbilly]

15 hours ago, Gus Potter said:

Andy.

 

No wonder this is causing grief. Here is a suggestion. Mull this over even if just to rule this idea out. It seems like you are getting run ragged.

 

The following suggestion is based on tactics used to deal with say a home warranty provider who is using the fine print to avoid addressing the issues.

 

Take a step back first. Get yourself a "street wise" Stuctural Enginneer. Get them to site for a day.. yes a day and expect to fork out £800.00 -1200 quid. Seems a lot but the SE will spend a few hours thinking time after they have left site.. not that bad. The SE will look to see where the frame is non compliant..and everything else that they can see or even if they "get a smell" they will look at that too. Once an SE is instructed to examine everything..it means anything else that may count as a contributing factor.. they do.. no prisoners!

 

For example the SE will look at all the nail edge distances, plumbing of the frame, the roof trusses, the load paths and how this missalignment of the dormer may be changing the load paths and if the supporting walls are still ok. The ground levels, how the kit is sitting on the founds.. odd stuff that may not seem directly related to the issue.. damp proof membranes, vapour barriers.. tile batten spacing.. the lot! The reason for this is that all these other bit's an bobs contribute to what SE's call "robustness" and this forms part of the design codes.

 

Also, if the say trusses are not sitting where they should be then questions get asked, for example are the connections still ok.. again are the tile batten spacings still compliant with the tile specifications.. it's a big can of worms to defend!

 

Make no mistake if you are an SE and you are instructed to survey a timber frame.. well that is what you do! You don't muck about!

 

The secret here is that once you find a non compliance that impacts on the structural safety of the building you have them over a barrel. What you then say is.. hey you may be quoting me the fine print but you have supplied / erected an unsafe structure.

 

This cuts to the chase as if your SE say's it's not safe they have to do whatever it takes to fix it.. if it goes to court.. the SE stands up and says..they provided an unsafe structure and by that time the HSE will have been notified also, so too they will be chasing them.

 

What I can say is that once you nail them on the structural side they are often keen to negotiate.

 

The next step is up to you. You can try and negotiate a settlement yourself or you can instruct your SE to "have a chat" with your TF supplier. The SE will not "do a deal" on your behalf in terms of the fabric as professionaly they can't compromise on safety. The SE at this point acts as an independant person. To explain. An SE has a duty to public safety, you may sell the house but the liability rests with the SE long after you have gone.

 

However, by acting independantly they will often use some back channels to reach encourage settlement that is equitable. They may for example say to the TF supplier.. well if you don't play ball with me I'm going to recommend to my Client that we get a QS of like mind to me.. no prisoners.. and the bill is going to go up. My Client just wants it sorted and quickly..they are not seeking to punish you but if you keep digging in they may take a different view! These are thing an advisor can say but you as a Client may not be so able to do.

 

Andy.

 

Quite often trusses may not be "quite where they should be" Not all of the trusses will be fully loaded so sometimes you only need to remediate a few, maybe one or two so it's not often a case of the whole lot needs to be taken down.

 

The key here is to find the big stick to bring them to the table and quickly. The above is one possible way of achieving this. Ideally.. resolve it quickly, settle and not spend time trying to get your money after you have moved in. The moving in should be fun and if you have this hanging over your head it kind of spoils it?

 

Lastly the supplier will also be expected to pay any SE fees you have incurred.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Great call, thank you. I raised my concerns with my structural engineer and he has given me some questions  to go back to them on and stated what they have said is normal, is far from normal. I will see if a formal report is necessary. But thanks, have overlooked involving my guy with all the other stuff going on.

[Haylingbilly]

So one issue I have is that I ordered Floor Joists at 400 centres and they have supplied at 600. Whilst they were clearly on the contract, they were on their final engineering drawings at 600, so their mistake. But can they reasonably claim it is my mistake for not spotting their mistake on the drawings? I only had 8 hours to review the drawings before it went into production.

[jfb]

1 hour ago, Andy brown said:

So one issue I have is that I ordered Floor Joists at 400 centres and they have supplied at 600. Whilst they were clearly on the contract, they were on their final engineering drawings at 600, so their mistake

Are the joists the right spec for 600 spacing? Have a look at the span tables to check.

[jack1962]

1 hour ago, Andy brown said:

So one issue I have is that I ordered Floor Joists at 400 centres and they have supplied at 600. Whilst they were clearly on the contract, they were on their final engineering drawings at 600, so their mistake. But can they reasonably claim it is my mistake for not spotting their mistake on the drawings? I only had 8 hours to review the drawings before it went into production.

The SE may have felt that 600 centres were sufficient for the structure,,they should perhaps still have consulted you and advised you of that change and their reasoning behind it and that you were satisfied with that. Issues on drawing etc as with builds are not always apparent and with you have so much going on it is easy to miss things out

[Haylingbilly]

There is a great document on the TRADA website which states standards. I have used this on multiple occasions to insist on standards.

Have just found this clause

4.13.2 Acceptance of General

Arrangement Drawings and connection

details

Acceptance by the Employer means that:

• the principal levels, dimensions and typical details shown on the General Arrangement Drawings are a

• correct interpretation of the design intent
  the principles adopted for the connection detailing are compatible with the design intent.

  Acceptance does not relieve the Timber Contractor of the responsibility for accuracy of the calculations and detail dimensions on the drawings, or the fitting together of parts to be assembled on Site. The Project Engineer will not undertake detailed checks of General Arrangement Drawings, connection details or calcula- tions.

On the basis my contract with the timber frame company is subject to the standard TRADA terms, they are going to struggle to argue we are liable for their mistakes by not spotting them them up!