Heat Pumps & Hydrogen Powered Boilers Book

[Des Ingham]

2 hours ago, IanR said:

 

I would, but please fact check them. If you wish to challenge any comments made, I'd like the opportunity to understand your argument and elaborate or correct my comments if required. Within this thread would be ideal.

I will IanR, but unlikely to be challenging any comments, I want a broad range of opinions, no doubt many will be at odds with each other, I am making it clear in the book that everyone must do their own due diligence for whatever path they take. Thanks again.

[SteamyTea]

1 hour ago, Des Ingham said:

I want a broad range of opinions

Would not facts be better?

[Des Ingham]

10 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

Would not facts be better?

With new technology developing all the time nothing is set in stone, and `facts` are so often manipulated to back up someones opinion. If everything was black and white it would make life a  whole lot easier to negotiate!

[SteamyTea]

58 minutes ago, Des Ingham said:

`facts` are so often manipulated to back up someones opinion

Stick to the Laws of Thermodynamics and you cannot go wrong.

It is why they are Scientific Laws.

[Des Ingham]

On 10/08/2021 at 18:19, IanR said:

 

I would, but please fact check them. If you wish to challenge any comments made, I'd like the opportunity to understand your argument and elaborate or correct my comments if required. Within this thread would be ideal.

Hi IanR, are you happy with the following to go in the book:

"Ian R who lives in Essex is another who seems happy with his ASHP in his new build. He gave me the benefit of his experience saying: “My personal experience is that I came to installing an ASHP for my space heating and hot water for reasons other than saving the planet. Quite simply there isn't a gas main with a mile of my entrance, so an ASHP with RHI (Renewable Heating Incentive which gives financial support to people who use certain renewable technologies to heat up their premises) contribution was significantly better value than the Oil or LPG options I had. I was surprised at how generous the RHI grant was, but it has been tightened since.  I shared the common view that if Gas was available then it was the cost effective choice.
“However the mood-music has changed now, or perhaps it's just got louder. My view now is that ASHP`s are the right choice for new builds (and significant renovations) even when Gas is available, otherwise within 10-15 years the property will be requiring a significant update or be facing a devaluation.
“Anyhow, having chosen to go with an ASHP I felt it best to combine it with a low energy loss fabric achieved with U values of 0.10W/m²K to 0.11W/m²K for floor, walls and roof; 0.6W/m²K to 0.8W/m²K for windows and doors and an air tightness targeted at 0.6AH, but to my surprise substantially improved on.

“I don't know that my experience can really be carried across to owners of existing houses considering moving to an ASHP, but with a heating system designed for the property's energy losses and hot water requirements, it does exactly what it's supposed to, without any fuss and day-to-day running costs that are slightly below an equivalent Natural Gas system.”

Thanks Des.
 

[SteamyTea]

6 minutes ago, Des Ingham said:

Quite simply there isn't a gas main with a mile of my entrance

Quite simply there isn't a gas main within a mile of my entrance.

 

(Feel like I am marking my old RE students homework.  It is much easier seeing others typos than one owns)

[Des Ingham]

3 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Quite simply there isn't a gas main within a mile of my entrance.

 

(Feel like I am marking my old RE students homework.  It is much easier seeing others typos than one owns)

See what you did there. That`s corrected ?

[IanR]

47 minutes ago, Des Ingham said:

Hi IanR, are you happy with the following to go in the book:

and an air tightness targeted at 0.6AH, but to my surprise substantially improved on.

 

should read 0.6ACH

Yes Des, I have no issue with you using that quote.

[Dave Jones]

placeholder 

 

will add later.

[Dave Jones]

What you won’t read on here is  the other side of the argument.

 

In fairness as far as heat pumps go on this forum you are preaching to the converted. Largely because the people here are smart, motivated and investing their hard earned and want the cream. And fair play to them. They are the niche.

 

Let’s talk existing housing stock heated by predominantly gas combis. Replace the gas combi with a heat pump. Unless you want to freeze you would need to treble the surface area of the radiators, you will have lost the ability to have multiple baths/showers and more importantly your energy bill will at least treble compared to using gas. So its a lose, lose, lose and lose scenario which any sane person will ignore. Cost wise its a factor of 4 more expensive to ditch gas and install a heat pump compared to a modern efficient combi. Who knows how much all these heat pumps will cost to get working again in 6-10 years after they all start wearing out.

 

Now lets look at new build.

 

The developers have the option to make houses super efficient and air tight, at a cost. This cost will put everything out of the reach of first time buyers for sure let alone finding any subbies who can do the extra work. So will it happen in the next 10 years ? no chance.

Gov mandate is more housing that people can afford. Yes they can fit underfloor heating and heat pumps but as young families will find, it will be going back to the 70's where after dad has had a bath there is no hot water left. The bills in the deep of winter will be immense when heat pumps are least efficient and the poorest who use tokens will be unable to plan ahead as you need to turn on the heat yesterday if you don’t want to freeze today. Unlike gas which you pay the meter, turn up the stat and an hour later you are warm and have unlimited hot water.

 

So no heat pumps are not the answer for the country not by a long shot.

[SteamyTea]

It is worth pointing out, that @Dave Jones, claims to have had an ASHP installed once than it failed to perform,  He has never offered any evidence i.e. house heat load, size and make of system, age of system, running cost, an invoice to show installation cost, DHW flow rates etc.

What he has done is pop up on just about every heat pump thread claiming the same faults will occur with all ASHPs, and the only solution is a gas combi, but never mentions what size combi would be suitable.

He even claims that a gas combi is suitable for people that have stated that they have no gas.

 

The mods, who are quick to delete some cheeky comments really need to do something about this.

 

[IanR]

5 minutes ago, Dave Jones said:

What you won’t read on here is  the other side of the argument.

 

But we constantly hear your alternate facts on this forum Dave.

 

 

[Dave Jones]

Just now, IanR said:

 

But we constantly hear your alternate facts on this forum Dave.

 

 

 

and i thank you for that. 

 

 

"I cannot keep quiet even when I am a lone voice"

Mahathir Ghandi

 

[Declan52]

2 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

It is worth pointing out, that @Dave Jones, claims to have had an ASHP installed once than it failed to perform,  He has never offered any evidence i.e. house heat load, size and make of system, age of system, running cost, an invoice to show installation cost, DHW flow rates etc.

What he has done is pop up on just about every heat pump thread claiming the same faults will occur with all ASHPs, and the only solution is a gas combi, but never mentions what size combi would be suitable.

He even claims that a gas combi is suitable for people that have stated that they have no gas.

 

The mods, who are quick to delete some cheeky comments really need to do something about this.

 

As long as a post doesn't break the T&C's then it's allowed. If the post contains information  that another member disputes then we allow and welcome a healthy debate on whatever topic is being discussed as long as it is kept civil. If you think something is lies then please use facts and figures to prove that a member has got it wrong otherwise it's just 2 opposing views of the same issue.

[ProDave]

16 minutes ago, Dave Jones said:

The bills in the deep of winter will be immense when heat pumps are least efficient and the poorest who use tokens will be unable to plan ahead as you need to turn on the heat yesterday if you don’t want to freeze today

Do you call my heating bill for my detached house of less than £250 per year "immense"?

 

I don't need to plan ahead.  My house stays warm all on it's own without any input from me, using a simple device know as a thermostat..

 

Don't forget I am in the Highlands, one of the coldest climates in the UK.  If my house were build in say the southwest of the UK I bet the heating bill would really tiny.

[IanR]

I know we've done all this before, but lets go through it again.
 

36 minutes ago, Dave Jones said:

They are the niche.

 

67,000 heat pump installs in the UK in 2020. Government to push with incentives and legislation to achieve 600,000 installs per year by 2028.

Definitely not a niche.
 

36 minutes ago, Dave Jones said:

Unless you want to freeze you would need to treble the surface area of the radiators,

As pointed out to you previously it's a 40% increase in rad volume required, although wet UFH would be better.
 

36 minutes ago, Dave Jones said:

you will have lost the ability to have multiple baths/showers

 

No you won't, as has been pointed out to you many times by people that actually have ASHPs

 

36 minutes ago, Dave Jones said:

more importantly your energy bill will at least treble compared to using gas.

 

No it won't. The SCOP of my heat pump is 4.2, so the per kWh cost is lower than it would be for a gas boiler.
 

36 minutes ago, Dave Jones said:

in 6-10 years after they all start wearing out.

ASHPs have the same lifespan as gas combis. Please bring some data to reference that shows otherwise.

 

36 minutes ago, Dave Jones said:

The developers have the option to make houses super efficient and air tight, at a cost. This cost will put everything out of the reach of first time buyers for sure

Houses for first time buyers will continue to cost that max that first time buyers can afford, that's basic economics. The extra cost of better performing new homes, which has to happen, will come of the premium paid for plots with planning.

 

36 minutes ago, Dave Jones said:

So will it happen in the next 10 years ? no chance.

 

Building Regs will be ensuring it happens in 2025.

 

36 minutes ago, Dave Jones said:

going back to the 70's where after dad has had a bath there is no hot water left.

 

You'll have to tell us what you are basing this opinion on, as those with ASHPs constantly tell you that you are wrong.

 

36 minutes ago, Dave Jones said:

So no heat pumps are not the answer for the country not by a long shot.

So what is the answer then Dave? By the way, the question is "how do you bring net zero heating to Housing in the UK?"

Edited August 13, 2021 by IanR

[Dave Jones]

 

"Building Regs will be ensuring it happens in 2025."

 

Im not so sure that will happen, there is very much doubt in the industry.

 

So what is the answer then Dave? By the way, the question is "how do you bring net zero heating to Housing in the UK?"

 

Who says "net zero" is even possible ? Sacrifice the UK economy on the alter of carbon neutral while the rest of the world, ie China, does what it likes ? 

 

One thing is for sure, the Conservative party wont be winning any elections by mass installing heat pumps and freezing OAP's to death. 

 

It will be kicked into the long grass.

 

 

[Dave Jones]

23 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Do you call my heating bill for my detached house of less than £250 per year "immense"?

 

I don't need to plan ahead.  My house stays warm all on it's own without any input from me, using a simple device know as a thermostat..

 

Don't forget I am in the Highlands, one of the coldest climates in the UK.  If my house were build in say the southwest of the UK I bet the heating bill would really tiny.

 

i congratulate you prodave, you have put your time and effort into a niche solution that works for you.

[joe90]

33 minutes ago, Dave Jones said:

n fairness as far as heat pumps go on this forum you are preaching to the converted. Largely because the people here are smart, motivated and investing their hard earned and want the cream. And fair play to them.

Thanks for that compliment. 

 

35 minutes ago, Dave Jones said:

Let’s talk existing housing stock heated by predominantly gas combis.

This may be news to you but this is a build forum, mostly people building their own house,( like I did)  maybe upgrading which means increasing insulation and airtightness by many degrees. This is not existing housing stock. If this were a heating forum and people were talking about heat pumps replacing gas combis in un modified houses with existing radiators then you may have a point

 

@Dave Jones a question for you, did you have a heat pump installed in “existing housing stock “ with no upgrade in insulation or airtightness? Was you’re heat pump designed and installed correctly for the DHW usage of your family and the heat load calculated correctly?   I think not, hence your negative viewpoint on ASHP,s

 

many here have successfully installed heat pumps and are pleased with the results 

 

many here do not have access to mains gas..

 

here endeth the lesson. ?

 

 

[ProDave]

@Dave Jones

 

Rather than keep on telling everybody how rubbish heat pumps are, I would really like you to start a new thread outlining exactly what problems you had in the past with a heat pump.  Then perhaps we can begin to understand what actually went wrong, and everybody, including yourself, could learn why your system did not work, and what could have been done to make it work and what can be done to make other retro fit systems work.

[IanR]

1 hour ago, Dave Jones said:

Im not so sure that will happen, there is very much doubt in the industry.

*text colour changed to make it legible.

 

The first step happens in the Regs for 2022, that's already in place. With regards to banning fossil fuel boilers in new builds for 2025, it's the one thing the Tory party is on message about, and the opposition are silent on.

 

You're speaking to the wrong people "in the industry".

 

1 hour ago, Dave Jones said:

Who says "net zero" is even possible ? Sacrifice the UK economy on the alter of carbon neutral while the rest of the world, ie China, does what it likes ? 

 

Why would it not be possible?

 

How does the UK Government pushing investment into building higher performing homes, and forcing spend & providing grants to improve existing homes, sacrifice the economy? The question is more like "where are we going to get all the trades from to do this extra work?".

 

1 hour ago, Dave Jones said:

One thing is for sure, the Conservative party wont be winning any elections by mass installing heat pumps and freezing OAP's to death. 

 

What Party is going to argue against the net-zero economy, including net-zero heating for homes? You're going to struggle to find someone to vote for if you want a Party that's going to allow you to keep a Gas Boiler.

 

1 hour ago, Dave Jones said:

It will be kicked into the long grass.

 

By who? there's no one arguing against it? Yes, there are the vested interests within the Natural Gas supply Network that want things slowed down to give a chance for a breakthrough in green hydrogen research, but they are not arguing against the need to go Net Zero.

 

The next clear direction will come in the "Heat in Buildings" strategy statement, from the Dept. for Business, Energy & Industrial Strategy.

The statement has been delayed, it was due in Spring, then in July, now expected in Autumn I believe. The delays are due to the wish to speed up the transition, to bring forward the date on which the sale of fossil fuel boilers will be banned.

Edited August 13, 2021 by IanR

[billt]

4 hours ago, IanR said:

67,000 heat pump installs in the UK in 2020. Government to push with incentives and legislation to achieve 600,000 installs per year by 2028.

Definitely not a niche.

 

No it won't. The SCOP of my heat pump is 4.2, so the per kWh cost is lower than it would be for a gas boiler.

 

 

Dave Jones undermines his argument by overstating his case; you are doing the same.

 

There are 22 million gas CH systems in the UK, 67,000 heat pumps is niche.

 

A SCOP of 4.2 sounds rather optimistically high - it's only likely to be achievable with very low flow temperatures; IOW not when applied to a retrofit. A quick search finds a list of SCOPs for Vaillant ASHPs which range from 4.58 at 35C to 2.9 at 50C.

 

Even a SCOP of 4.2 isn't enough to make a heat pump cheaper than gas. At the rates that I'm paying the COP would need to be greater than 5.5 to achieve cost parity.

 

I'm not anti heat pumps; I'd very much like to get rid of gas, but it would be economic madness to install one to heat our house.

 

In fact there's an ASHP in the garage at the moment - a 28kW unit with a claimed COP of up to 16! just got to get round to installing it.

[Marvin]

5 hours ago, IanR said:

I know we've done all this before, but lets go through it again.

 

You have more patience than me!

 

Absolutely true: A poorly insulated and drafty house with an ASHP incorrectly specified used incorrectly will not work properly or will cost a lot to run. 

 

I will stick to my warm and cost efficient opinion based on my ASHP heating. And the same here anything above 8C outside and we get warm unless we extract the heat through the MVHR. 

 

The nearest mains gas here is MILES away

 

And I cannot produce my own gas (you know what I mean!) but will produce electricity to be used with the ASHP soon!

 

Started my 100m2 property at £500 for water and heating using bottled gas.... will see what happens....

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 13, 2021 by Marvin
minor change.

[joe90]

1 minute ago, Marvin said:

A poorly insulated and drafty house with an ASHP incorrectly specified used incorrectly will not work properly or will cost a lot to run. 

this is true of any type of heating!, 

 

2 minutes ago, Marvin said:

I will stick to my warm and cost efficient opinion based on my ASHP heating.

And me

 

 

[Marvin]

Did I say it's quieter than my freezer?