Double storey wraparound extension

[RoseD]

Morning all,

posted my amazingly home drawn sketch up drawings a while back of my double storey extension design (rectangle).

The husband wants to ‘wrap it around’ I think from my research so far this will be very costly. I was wondering if anyone had experience of doing this? 
 

It would be a rear extension (not side and back) but our home is T shaped - pic added. Red area is what I think we should do, green is what the husband would like - he’s got his eye on bifolds the whole way along the back. 
 

So we’d be taking off a corner of the house - I realise I’ll need experts but just was after any opinions to help make our initial decision. 
 

Would a rectangle be a Lot cheaper than wrap around? Any other comments more than welcome.

Edited July 27, 2021 by RoseD

[ToughButterCup]

37 minutes ago, RoseD said:

... The husband wants to ‘wrap it around’ I think from my research so far this will be very costly...

 

He Must Be Obeyed OK?  Its a condition of membership for BH..... (its in the small print) ?

 

Your question can't be answered accurately without a good deal more detail: but my feeling is that the costs are likely to be so similar that it isn't worth worrying about.

[saveasteading]

Similar costs until you start knocking out large areas of walls. Taking off the corner of a building is not likely to be easy or economical, as is where all the elements come together and stiffen the building.

Something has to go in its place, like columns and beams and struts. Better find a way of working the existing wall, or some of it,  into the design.

 

But Architecture is adventure. Engineers can make it work. Just remember I mentioned the cost.

 

That picture is something special..keep it, frame it and hang it with pride when the work is done, perhaps where the corner used to be.

 

[Dudda]

As an architect the first question that's asked is where's south. If that Red extension you're proposing was going to put the right hand side of the house into shadow and darkness then you shouldn't build there no matter how much cheaper it would be.

 

At such an early stage you need to get an architect to think about light and shadow, flow of the space, orientation, connection between the different spaces and the garden, functions, etc. This will decide where the extension goes and what shape it takes on.

[ProDave]

Simple point.  Building a new wall costs pretty much a fixed cost per linear metre of wall.  So the more area you enclose per linear metre of wall, the lower the cost per square metre of extension.

 

The right hand bit, where the new wall is, is very close to the existing wall (no scale on drawing though)  So the wall costs as much but the cost per square metre of that small enclosed space is higher.  Then add on knocking down that corner of the existing house, and the cost per square metre of that bit of the extension is a LOT higher and the build is a lot more complicated.

 

And that's before you even think about how modify / extend the roof structure, for which we really need a photograph of the back of the house as it is now.

[Makeitstop]

27 minutes ago, Dudda said:

As an architect the first question that's asked is where's south. If that Red extension you're proposing was going to put the right hand side of the house into shadow and darkness then you shouldn't build there no matter how much cheaper it would be.

 

At such an early stage you need to get an architect to think about light and shadow, flow of the space, orientation, connection between the different spaces and the garden, functions, etc. This will decide where the extension goes and what shape it takes on.

 

Is this really true though?

 

While I appreciate the fundamental principle of avoiding shading that area of the house, what can be done if the client wants to avoid moving, is looking to create more  ground floor space, but, the only space they have to extend into is at the rear.

 

What if the space that will suffer from some shading is a utility room that is used minimally, and can be closed off by a door into a main kitchen living area.

 

[RoseD]

2 hours ago, ToughButterCup said:

 

He Must Be Obeyed OK?  Its a condition of membership for BH..... (its in the small print) ?

 

Your question can't be answered accurately without a good deal more detail: but my feeling is that the costs are likely to be so similar that it isn't worth worrying about.

My husband says you’re right - I probably shouldn’t even be allowed to be asking this question without his permission ?

 

[RoseD]

1 hour ago, saveasteading said:

Similar costs until you start knocking out large areas of walls. Taking off the corner of a building is not likely to be easy or economical, as is where all the elements come together and stiffen the building.

Something has to go in its place, like columns and beams and struts. Better find a way of working the existing wall, or some of it,  into the design.

 

But Architecture is adventure. Engineers can make it work. Just remember I mentioned the cost.

 

That picture is something special..keep it, frame it and hang it with pride when the work is done, perhaps where the corner used to be.

 

Thanks - that is generally my thinking. Additionally I think we’d need a new roof but I think we may need adjustments to the roof anyway because of the way it is at the moment. 
 

I’ve added two more amazing sketches for you to appreciate ? 

 

back view and aerial ?

 

If we had a column in place of the corner maybe that would reduce the cost? 

[Ferdinand]

Can you post an anonymised satellite view from Google?

 

Even that would help more.

[RoseD]

2 hours ago, Dudda said:

As an architect the first question that's asked is where's south. If that Red extension you're proposing was going to put the right hand side of the house into shadow and darkness then you shouldn't build there no matter how much cheaper it would be.

 

At such an early stage you need to get an architect to think about light and shadow, flow of the space, orientation, connection between the different spaces and the garden, functions, etc. This will decide where the extension goes and what shape it takes on.

Thanks for this! I hadn’t considered the light coming into the current kitchen window being over shadowed. Which is why an architect is needed ?!

 

Our garden is north/north east facing and really big - around 55 meters long. We have a garage to the left of where the red extension would be already but that’s obviously single story. 
 

rear is the bottom of the pic I’ve attached - realised I’ve switched the perspective 

Edited July 27, 2021 by RoseD

[RoseD]

1 hour ago, ProDave said:

Simple point.  Building a new wall costs pretty much a fixed cost per linear metre of wall.  So the more area you enclose per linear metre of wall, the lower the cost per square metre of extension.

 

The right hand bit, where the new wall is, is very close to the existing wall (no scale on drawing though)  So the wall costs as much but the cost per square metre of that small enclosed space is higher.  Then add on knocking down that corner of the existing house, and the cost per square metre of that bit of the extension is a LOT higher and the build is a lot more complicated.

 

And that's before you even think about how modify / extend the roof structure, for which we really need a photograph of the back of the house as it is now.

Thank you this is really helpful and really why I feel it’s better to build a rectangle out like the red bit. 
 

I think even if we just come out though the roof might need a lot of work - I’ve added a wonderful sketch of the way the roof is and a pic I found on my phone. 

[RoseD]

33 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

Can you post an anonymised satellite view from Google?

 

Even that would help more.

Like this? It’s not very clear - I’ve also added another wonderful sketch from me - rear is the bottom of the pic.

 

[ProDave]

I would go back to first principles and have a re think.

 

By FAR the easiest extension would be to just extend the main gable ended part of the house at the back.  Can you work out a way to get the extra accommodation you want by doing that?

 

If not post a sketch of the existing upstairs and downstairs floor plan and a description of what you want to achieve?

[Mr Punter]

Because you have a detached house, the rules now allow you to build a very large single storey extension without planning consent.  One benefit of building single storey is that it won't cast such a big shadow over the garden.

 

Would it work out to have a very large family room at the back and perhaps repurpose one or two ground floor rooms as additional (en-suite?) bedroom(s)?

[RoseD]

1 hour ago, ProDave said:

I would go back to first principles and have a re think.

 

By FAR the easiest extension would be to just extend the main gable ended part of the house at the back.  Can you work out a way to get the extra accommodation you want by doing that?

 

If not post a sketch of the existing upstairs and downstairs floor plan and a description of what you want to achieve?

Hey - thank you. I understand that, but the space between the extension and garage would feel a bit wasted - maybe we could make it into a feature patio or something. Though the way the hall is set out we’d struggle with the upstairs layout I think if we extended that way.

 

We have 4 nice sized bedrooms upstairs but only one small bathroom. Three teen girls! For the size of the house we just don’t have enough showers. So would like 2 en-suites and I’d love a walk in dressing area. Downstairs we’d like a large family kitchen/seat area. 
 

I’ve added some hand drawn sketches - I have done a sketch up but can’t access the account at the moment. 
 

The extension idea is 5.4m wide x 6m long. 

Bedroom 3 - 4x3.2m

Bedroom 4 - 3.5x3.2m

Bathroom -  2.5x2m (best guess based on standard bath length and width)

 

LR - living room

D - dining room

S - snug (second living room)

K - kitchen 

in the middle is the hall - stairs to the right and downstairs loo.

 

we have access to the waste both at the rear and by the front door centrally - it runs under the house. 
 

The idea is to make the extension into the master bedroom with en-suite and walk in dressing room - husband would like a balcony, neighbours have one and we don’t over look anyone so I think that’s possible planning- wise.

Edited July 27, 2021 by RoseD

[RoseD]

1 hour ago, Mr Punter said:

Because you have a detached house, the rules now allow you to build a very large single storey extension without planning consent.  One benefit of building single storey is that it won't cast such a big shadow over the garden.

 

Would it work out to have a very large family room at the back and perhaps repurpose one or two ground floor rooms as additional (en-suite?) bedroom(s)?

I have thought about this - we could come out and make the 2nd living room a bedroom with en-suite, and re-arrange upstairs to add an en-suite but we’d be losing a bedroom upstairs so I wasn’t keen.

 

Really I’d be happy with a single story upstairs ? but that’s a bit gravity defying.

 

I also considered going into the loft as we have a large hall. But our eaves are too low.

[Mr Punter]

Can you get a tent and get one of the kids to sleep in it?

[Dudda]

I still think everyone is thinking about this the wrong way and need to take a step back and look at the bigger picture before bolting on the most economical extension where they think it will fit. The garden faces north ish. The part of the house that gets the most light and evening sun is the garage. That's such a shame.

 

Personally my initial thoughts would be to knock and rebuild the garage or convert part of it and extend into the garden on the west side of the site. Break out the snug into the extension this way. The existing kitchen can become the new sung or kids den opening onto the garden, the existing dining area a new utility and ground floor bathroom and flip the kitchen and dining area to the opposite side of the house in a brand new purpose built open plan kitchen, living, dining area that could have lovely high ceilings, rooflights, etc as you've no bedrooms above on that side of the house above the garage.

 

If you want more room upstairs you extend the small bedroom 2 over the new garage and open plan living area creating a new purpose built master suite. Bedroom 2 is a tiny box room and this is the perfect way to grow it.

 

The other advantage of this is you can very easily phase the work. You live in the existing kitchen, dining, living area etc while the new open plan kitchen living dining area is built. Then when it's finished you convert the old kitchen.

 

You may need planning depending if you decide to rebuild the garage but I think you're better off getting planning if needed and doing something right rather than a bolt on.

[Ferdinand]

Trade 2 of them in for boys ?.

 

PS This  questioning process is one of the best things we do here - trying to think outside your box. Don't worry about what people say - it is all meant to  help.

[Ferdinand]

Have you talked to an architect?

 

I mean write out a 2 page needs statement, then buy a day or two of their time and ask them to come back with suggestions.

 

Then let that steep for a time, and then come back to it.

[RoseD]

50 minutes ago, Dudda said:

I still think everyone is thinking about this the wrong way and need to take a step back and look at the bigger picture before bolting on the most economical extension where they think it will fit. The garden faces north ish. The part of the house that gets the most light and evening sun is the garage. That's such a shame.

 

Personally my initial thoughts would be to knock and rebuild the garage or convert part of it and extend into the garden on the west side of the site. Break out the snug into the extension this way. The existing kitchen can become the new sung or kids den opening onto the garden, the existing dining area a new utility and ground floor bathroom and flip the kitchen and dining area to the opposite side of the house in a brand new purpose built open plan kitchen, living, dining area that could have lovely high ceilings, rooflights, etc as you've no bedrooms above on that side of the house above the garage.

 

If you want more room upstairs you extend the small bedroom 2 over the new garage and open plan living area creating a new purpose built master suite. Bedroom 2 is a tiny box room and this is the perfect way to grow it.

 

The other advantage of this is you can very easily phase the work. You live in the existing kitchen, dining, living area etc while the new open plan kitchen living dining area is built. Then when it's finished you convert the old kitchen.

 

You may need planning depending if you decide to rebuild the garage but I think you're better off getting planning if needed and doing something right rather than a bolt on.

Bedroom 2 is quite large already (I don’t have measurements but I’d guess 4mx3.5m ish) my drawing makes it look small in comparison to the other side of the house. 
 

I had thought about extending the garage up originally (I assume it would have to be knocked down and re-built to make sure the foundations are ok). Making that area upstairs an en-suite and walk in dressing area off bedroom 2. That would also be extending the gable end of the roof which is easier by the sounds of things.
 

Having a roof light downstairs is appealing too and we could come out further than the existing garage. 

[RoseD]

52 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

Have you talked to an architect?

 

I mean write out a 2 page needs statement, then buy a day or two of their time and ask them to come back with suggestions.

 

Then let that steep for a time, and then come back to it.

I haven’t yet - my husband works for a housing company, he’s a bit like Chandler to me. Used to be an engineer but now project manages large housing developments, so he has architect friends. Thinking of hosting a BBQ with the entertainment being a ‘who can make the best suggestions’ game - not sure how much fun they’d find that though ?

 

In all seriousness I was trying to get my head around what I’d like first, what’s most plausible, but it seems part of an architects job is to talk that through with me. 

[RoseD]

1 hour ago, Mr Punter said:

Can you get a tent and get one of the kids to sleep in it?

My youngest would totally go for this as a solution!