ryder72 Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 Multiple questions have been asked lately about various extraction options. I have also seen some questions about Bora questions. I thought I had decided the extractor hood for my own house, but recent discussions with various members particularly JSHarris forced me to seriously reconsider by line of thinking and look into other options. I have generally not been a fan of downdraft hoods due to their limited ability to extract odours and grease once its escaped the local extraction zone. This limitation applies in both extraction and recirculation mode. Ceiling recessed units are very effective in extraction mode provided ducting is correctly installed but if limited ability in recirculation mode. Inline downdraft hoods have really taken off recently, a segment pioneered by a German company called Bora. Hoods made by Bora have been discussed on this forum do I decided to investigate. This style of extraction has taken off in the past 18-24 months and a number of manufacturers have brought out new products. My investigation revealed that products from a number of major brands (I wont be revealing brands here for obvious reasons) are all contract manufactured and a clear case of jumping on the bandwagon. Bora make a great product. I must admit I am partial to a brand called Gutmann, a very high quality extraction specialist. Gutmann hoods are all handmade, uncompromising and very reliable products. A visit to their facility to investigate and carry out some real life cooking in recirculation mode has left me without any doubt of the suitability of the product for my house. The range is quite flexible and bespoke and one is able to configure it into a grid, manufactured to order. The most impressive aspect was a lifelong recirculation cartridge that can be regenerated in an hour in an oven at 200 degrees at a frequency of between 6-18 months depending on use. Gutmann claim 88% odour extraction efficiency and 98% grease extraction efficiency. Most importantly, I had sight of independent tests that revealed that Gutmann hoods are able to draw air into the hood at speeds of up to 5.7m/s, about 35% greater than their nearest competitor. Happy to answer any questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stones Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 Price? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliG Posted March 15, 2017 Share Posted March 15, 2017 (edited) The Bora product looks interesting. I tried Googling Bora but they appear to be one of the annoying companies that don't allow people to publish prices. I found many suggested prices, there is a Bora Basic on Ebay at £4999. An article on House suggested a price of £2700 including VAT. This would be interesting as it isn't far off the price of an induction hob plus a large ceiling extractor. I find this extremely annoying. It is a standard mass produced product, thus there is no reason to keep the price some kind of secret. Surely any benefits in controlling the price are lost in way lower volumes. If resellers want to compete away their margins why should the manufacturer care. Sorry for my reaction, but it is a pet hate as I believe not publishing prices considerably wastes my time and am also very suspicious of the motives of people who don't publish prices. Edited March 15, 2017 by AliG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliG Posted March 15, 2017 Share Posted March 15, 2017 There appears to be a similar product made by Elica https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrkLF-B3kE8 It is £1700-2500 depending on model Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
worldwidewebs Posted March 15, 2017 Share Posted March 15, 2017 We are getting a Bora. Seen them in action and they are brilliant things. The Basic is about £2200 and the Classic another £1800-2000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryder72 Posted March 15, 2017 Author Share Posted March 15, 2017 12 hours ago, Stones said: Price? The Gutmann solution is very bespoke starting from a 2 zone induction hob, wok or teppanyaki with a hood to 2 zone with 1 hood to 3 zone with 2 hoods offering a very large number of combinations. If you have anything specific in mind let me know. All said, its cheaper than Bora. 11 hours ago, AliG said: There appears to be a similar product made by Elica https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrkLF-B3kE8 It is £1700-2500 depending on model I get your point. A manufacturer is entitled to maintain its brand image and the best case in point is an iPhone which is never discounted and tightly price controlled. I never hear any complains to that effect. That Elica product is a me-too productmade by Faber. You will soon see a Siemens and Miele lookalike. I am not saying who makes them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
worldwidewebs Posted March 15, 2017 Share Posted March 15, 2017 The Elica is not a patch on the Bora Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryder72 Posted March 15, 2017 Author Share Posted March 15, 2017 7 minutes ago, worldwidewebs said: The Elica is not a patch on the Bora Yes. Agreed. Hence why I said, me too. With extraction, I have always trusted Gutmann. Bora is an impressive product and well engineered but what I have seen of Gutmann is a bit better for less money. Interestingly, Gutmann is owned by Elica but run independently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliG Posted March 15, 2017 Share Posted March 15, 2017 You have piqued my interest in these products. Why is the Elica inferior? I cannot find any specs on the Bora website Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexphd1 Posted March 15, 2017 Share Posted March 15, 2017 Tbh I am always concerned when two separate products are combined into one for maintance and repair. If it's beyond repair it could be complicated to replace if there isn't a direct replacement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Alphonsox Posted March 15, 2017 Share Posted March 15, 2017 13 hours ago, AliG said: The Bora product looks interesting. I tried Googling Bora but they appear to be one of the annoying companies that don't allow people to publish prices. I found many suggested prices, there is a Bora Basic on Ebay at £4999. An article on House suggested a price of £2700 including VAT. This would be interesting as it isn't far off the price of an induction hob plus a large ceiling extractor. Agreed the lack of pricing is a pain but in no way unique. I have just bought a Bora BIU (induction hob with recirculation ) for £1995 inc VAT. Which I think is reasonable given that it replaces both the Hob and extractor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryder72 Posted March 15, 2017 Author Share Posted March 15, 2017 2 hours ago, AliG said: You have piqued my interest in these products. Why is the Elica inferior? I cannot find any specs on the Bora website Elica sit in a different market to the likes of Bora and Gutmann. Its a very mainstream product mainly around products designed to a price with inevitable compromises that go with it. Gutmann/Bora are more the lets make it correctly and then price it. 1 hour ago, Alexphd1 said: Tbh I am always concerned when two separate products are combined into one for maintance and repair. If it's beyond repair it could be complicated to replace if there isn't a direct replacement. No its just assembled as one. You can buy their hob components seperately if required but them used with the hood, they go in a sort of frame. The advantage is that a lot of components end up with little gaps between then. Of course this is more an aesthetic thing and nothing to do with function. 1 hour ago, Alphonsox said: Agreed the lack of pricing is a pain but in no way unique. I have just bought a Bora BIU (induction hob with recirculation ) for £1995 inc VAT. Which I think is reasonable given that it replaces both the Hob and extractor Yes its a good price point. The reason I have not chosen to get involved with that particular product is that most clients at that sort of price point want 5/6 zone hobs and of course the Bora is a 4 zone hob. Its a neat little package though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
readiescards Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 Does a downdraft extractor upset MVHR systems with kitchen ceiling extract? Or given it is a recirculating unit the there is no impact? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
readiescards Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 Looks pretty simple to make a downdraft extractor: take big fan in a box, get some flex tube, stick a filter in it, make a hole in kitchen island: http://www.gutmann-exklusiv.de/en/product-world/gutmann-technology/motors-blower.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryder72 Posted March 16, 2017 Author Share Posted March 16, 2017 4 hours ago, readiescards said: Does a downdraft extractor upset MVHR systems with kitchen ceiling extract? Or given it is a recirculating unit the there is no impact? Recirculation extraction will not affect MVHR system. Extracted systems will hence the move to a recirculation option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
volcane Posted March 19, 2017 Share Posted March 19, 2017 On 15/03/2017 at 15:07, ryder72 said: Yes its a good price point. The reason I have not chosen to get involved with that particular product is that most clients at that sort of price point want 5/6 zone hobs and of course the Bora is a 4 zone hob. Its a neat little package though. @ryder72 If not the 4 ring Bora what do you recommend? We will have an induction hob, I had planned for a 900 unit, 5/6 cooking zones, on a 700 deep worktop (not that keen on having the hob in the island). The Gutmann Mesa seems to fit the bill? Have you seen this in action? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryder72 Posted March 20, 2017 Author Share Posted March 20, 2017 Actually the Bora is a good product at that price point and a hard one to beat. Siemens are about to launch a very similar product. I dont know anything else at this point on the pricing but expect it to undercut Bora. The problem with all of the above is that you will have only 4 cooking zones and this also applied to the Gutmann Mesa or Abajo. Both are superb products (have seen them in action) but a little bit dearer than Bora. I trust Gutmann as a manufacturer so I would quite blindly buy any Gutmann product in the knowledge that its engineering is hard to beat. I can get some pricing for your on the MEsa and Abajo if you like. PM me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliG Posted March 20, 2017 Share Posted March 20, 2017 I wonder if the 5 zones really is a sticking point. We have a 5 zone hob, I don't think we have ever used more than 3 at once. Most cooking is done in the oven. The wider hobs look more flash, I reckon that is why people buy them. A wide 4 zone hob is probably fine for most people. I discussed the Bora with our kitchen designer. She too mentioned that a Siemens product is imminent. The main issue of concern for me would be that the hob is 196mm deep so I would lose a drawer below the hob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
volcane Posted March 20, 2017 Share Posted March 20, 2017 1 hour ago, ryder72 said: Actually the Bora is a good product at that price point and a hard one to beat. Siemens are about to launch a very similar product. I dont know anything else at this point on the pricing but expect it to undercut Bora. The problem with all of the above is that you will have only 4 cooking zones and this also applied to the Gutmann Mesa or Abajo. Both are superb products (have seen them in action) but a little bit dearer than Bora. I trust Gutmann as a manufacturer so I would quite blindly buy any Gutmann product in the knowledge that its engineering is hard to beat. I can get some pricing for your on the MEsa and Abajo if you like. PM me. The Mesa appears to be available in 3 different breite (widths), 700, 800 and 900 shown here http://www.gutmann-exklusiv.de/files/mesa.pdf I presume that the hob isn't included. We 'want' a larger hob even though not all the rings will be used at once but the space available when cooking is very useful. I think that the 80cm Gutmann hob combined with a matching Mesa downdraft would fit our needs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryder72 Posted March 20, 2017 Author Share Posted March 20, 2017 That should be possible. I haven't specified one to date Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney12 Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 One of the kitchen companies has the top end Bora (4 linkable zones with automatic fan extract rates) on demo at the Homebuildig and Renovation Show at the NEC. The Bora rep is also on the stand, I have to say I was impressed by its extraction ability. They have a "show only" offer discounting it to £3,200 (from £3,700). I very nearly bought one but stopped due to one tiny point....... The controls for the zones and extractor were incredibly fiddly. A sort of touch wheel type arrangement which was unresponsive and just plane fiddly. My better half would hate it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryder72 Posted March 24, 2017 Author Share Posted March 24, 2017 Thats the Bora professional. The knob control is a very German think which in my mind detracts from the idea of clean lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney12 Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 2 hours ago, ryder72 said: Thats the Bora professional. The knob control is a very German think which in my mind detracts from the idea of clean lines. No it wasn't the pro range. Just the top end of the basic range (4 interlinkable zones). It was a touch control (i.e. just a print on the glass) but in a wheel arrangement. Here's an image that shows the control I mean: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeSharp01 Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 Does it have a timer, I recall that when I looked the basic range did not have timers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney12 Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 28 minutes ago, MikeSharp01 said: Does it have a timer, I recall that when I looked the basic range did not have timers? Only an over run time (10 minutes) if my memory serves me correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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