Ferdinand Posted May 24, 2021 Share Posted May 24, 2021 In conversation in another place about heat pumps this has been asked: Quote What are the current green alternatives to a gas boiler which heats radiators and water for a terraced house in London, say? Thoughts? I would say insulate to approx current newbuild building regs probably with internal Wall Insulation, floor and loft, work out heat demand, and then look around. But I can't see many viable alternative to ASHP, unless something like Sunamp and off-peak electricity is now realistic (ie used as a storage heater). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted May 24, 2021 Share Posted May 24, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Ferdinand said: Thoughts? London tends to be 1 to 1.5°C higher temperature than the surrounding counties (though it does depend where in London as it is a very large place). So ASHP a good idea, and they can cool. Also the air quality is pretty poor. So MVHR should be fitted (put the inlet pipe up as high as possible). So there may be, depending on the space available and the cash to spend, a case for forced air heating as that can combine the two. It is only larger pipework really. Edited May 24, 2021 by SteamyTea 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferdinand Posted May 24, 2021 Author Share Posted May 24, 2021 Are we yet at the stage where a Sunamp can be heated up overnight, and then used to run radiators during the day? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted May 24, 2021 Share Posted May 24, 2021 52 minutes ago, Ferdinand said: Are we yet at the stage where a Sunamp can be heated up overnight, and then used to run radiators during the day? Why though. They may save a little space, and have a kWh of two lower standing losses, but they cost a lot. Similar to a heat pump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A_L Posted May 24, 2021 Share Posted May 24, 2021 47 minutes ago, Ferdinand said: Are we yet at the stage where a Sunamp can be heated up overnight, and then used to run radiators during the day? Do not think so. Some finger in the air stuff. Current building regs imply about 45kWh/m2.yr for Target Fabric Energy Efficiency (TFEE) for terraces - pages 5/6 - https://www.zerocarbonhub.org/sites/default/files/resources/reports/Fabric_Standards_for_2013-Worked_Examples_and_Fabric_Specification.pdf or about 3150kWh for 70m2 property. If 20% in January then an average of 20kWh/day and twice average on anyone day not uncommon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferdinand Posted May 24, 2021 Author Share Posted May 24, 2021 4 hours ago, A_L said: Do not think so. Some finger in the air stuff. Current building regs imply about 45kWh/m2.yr for Target Fabric Energy Efficiency (TFEE) for terraces - pages 5/6 - https://www.zerocarbonhub.org/sites/default/files/resources/reports/Fabric_Standards_for_2013-Worked_Examples_and_Fabric_Specification.pdf or about 3150kWh for 70m2 property. If 20% in January then an average of 20kWh/day and twice average on anyone day not uncommon. Hmmm. So potentially 1 or 2 of these Sunamps, depending on efficiency of the house. 12kWh storage each at £3k per piece. Not quite there except at the margins. https://midsummerwholesale.co.uk/buy/sunamp-heat-batteries/sunamp-ehw-ipv-12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferdinand Posted May 24, 2021 Author Share Posted May 24, 2021 4 hours ago, SteamyTea said: Why though. They may save a little space, and have a kWh of two lower standing losses, but they cost a lot. Similar to a heat pump. The request was for any ideas. So speculating. Personally I might be tempted to storage heaters plus a boost, if ASHP was not suitable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanR Posted May 24, 2021 Share Posted May 24, 2021 For new build Terrace houses and Apartments, how about District Heating? Seems to work in Sweden. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferdinand Posted May 24, 2021 Author Share Posted May 24, 2021 6 minutes ago, IanR said: For new build Terrace houses and Apartments, how about District Heating? Seems to work in Sweden. Yes - agree on an estate-level scheme. I think this one is already owned, and so I have said do the fabric first to a C or a B of course. Think of say a modest terrace in Chiswick. It's somebody who has already done a barn conversion in the Lake, so knows at least a reasonable amount of stuff. We were all debating the piece in the Sun today about fines for people who persist in wanting gas boilers. The story is mainly wrong, but an interesting debate in a political space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted May 24, 2021 Share Posted May 24, 2021 (edited) 6 minutes ago, IanR said: For new build Terrace houses and Apartments, how about District Heating? Seems to work in Sweden. While this can make sense, I think with the UKs attitude for Me Me Me, and our inability to financially support people when out of work, there is a risk that people may pay more than necessary, and some use a lot more than they should. Edited May 24, 2021 by SteamyTea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanR Posted May 24, 2021 Share Posted May 24, 2021 5 minutes ago, SteamyTea said: While this can make sense, I think with the UKs attitude for Me Me Me, and our I ability to financially support people when out of work, there is a risk that people may pay more than necessary, and some use a lot more than they should. Agree. It would need to be metered as it goes into each property, otherwise taps would be left running and windows open. For retrofitting tower blocks, when the hydrogen revolution doesn't happen for domestic heating, there is a plausible option of filling the roof space up with ASHPs and running the hot water down to each apartment externally. But that's going off topic... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Jones Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 can you site the heat pump sufficiently far away to not cause a statutory nuisance to your neighbours ? They are very noisy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpmiller Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 @Dave JonesNo they aren't. Cite your source. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferdinand Posted May 25, 2021 Author Share Posted May 25, 2021 This was my comment: -------------------- Green point 1 is always Fabric First - make insulated, ventilated, airtight, so that your energy requirement is 1/3 or 2/3 less, and you can have a smaller, cheaper whatever-it-is at the start. Nice thing about terraces is that you only have half the walls. Technologies in this situation? (I would build a heat model so I can countercheck whether I need the version they claim - ss here https://forum.buildhub.org.uk/topic/439-fabric-and-ventilation-heat-loss-calculator/) ASHP is probably a good one. You may need bigger radiators for distribution or perhaps look at a thin-layer ufh system which are available down to about 18mm thick. OTOH existing rads may deliver the heat you need if you have fabric-firsted well. Don't forget about the hot water, which is always a bigger instant load than heating. Or that for really well insulated houses, often cooling it down at certain times is the bigger challenge. Something like a Sunamp heat battery may be a decent boost (heat it up on offpeak), or for the water. I am not sure yet whether that is yet up to being a full heating system - again depends on the house. Or as it is London with its 'orrible air quality, something like a forced air heating system which would incorporate filters might be suitable. That could use an Air to Air Heat Pump. ASHP can also feed rads I believe. Just thoughts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 52 minutes ago, Dave Jones said: They are very noisy. 36 minutes ago, dpmiller said: No they aren't. Cite your source. Jones is trolling again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Jones Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 2 hours ago, dpmiller said: @Dave JonesNo they aren't. Cite your source. they must be 1m away from any boundary and emit less than 42dBA which is very hard to do unless at least 5m away from a neighbour boundary. Certainly if it was only 1 or 2m away then environmental health would be out as it would be a statuary noise nuisance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Jones Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 2 hours ago, SteamyTea said: Jones is trolling again. its a recognised common issue with them. Same as having a small wind turbine on the house, it creates an unpleasant and constant noise. May not be an iussue if the nearest neighbour is 500m away but in a terrace it will certainly be a problem. Think very carefully before going ahead as it could be expensive to rip it out after. https://www.soundplanning.co.uk/heat-pump-noise/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joth Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 1 minute ago, Dave Jones said: Certainly if it was only 1 or 2m away then environmental health would be out as it would be a statuary noise nuisance. Ours is 1m from a boundary (in a conservation area, no less) and certainly haven't had environmental health out yet. The road and 24hr train line is much louder than the heat pump, even stood right by it. The neighbours boiler flue is about the same noise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Jones Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 i can see how a train would indeed make more noise than an heat pump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpmiller Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 I've just had a look at the Worcester Bosch website, and interestingly, according to the ERP label their indoor oil boilers are 54-60Db yet their outdoor one is somehow 0Db. Hmmm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 4 hours ago, Dave Jones said: its a recognised common issue with them It is a very rare issue and normally caused by being too small for the job, or damage/lack of maintenance. The comparison with a small wind turbine is spurious at best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Jones Posted June 8, 2021 Share Posted June 8, 2021 On 25/05/2021 at 15:06, SteamyTea said: It is a very rare issue and normally caused by being too small for the job, or damage/lack of maintenance. The comparison with a small wind turbine is spurious at best. not really, when they have to work hard when its cold they are at their worst. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted June 8, 2021 Share Posted June 8, 2021 37 minutes ago, Dave Jones said: not really, when they have to work hard when its cold they are at their worst. You are trolling again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted June 8, 2021 Share Posted June 8, 2021 On 25/05/2021 at 07:04, Dave Jones said: They are very noisy. What utter bollocks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Jones Posted June 8, 2021 Share Posted June 8, 2021 4 hours ago, joe90 said: What utter bollocks! play the man not the ball. weak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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