Shower control valves and toilet help

[Vijay]

Hi Guys,

 

Looking for some help with the final pieces of this shower room jigsaw for my elderly parents and what bits I'll be installing. Got to say it's been an utter nightmare with places closed and there seams to be very few showrooms where you can actually look at stuff (understandably from the showrooms point of view as there seems to be so many options). With elderly parents, it's very difficult for my Mum to imagine things when trying to show her websites. Saying that, I've got most things sorted but kinda struggling with the toilet and shower controls and wondered if anyone can share advice/thoughts.

 

1. Going for a wall hung toilet. She wants a rimless toilet and we saw a Duravit Darling unit in a showroom with a 570 depth, but then that is no longer available in that size, now 540. Sitting on it, it seamed more comfortable than others they had. With the lack of showrooms, how on earth do you pick a toilet online? I've seen Bernstein toilets mentioned a few times, which I believe are based in Germany. Are they good comfortable toilets to go for?  Have people found differences in the rimless parts and how they actually flush/clean? Is the extra coatings available worth it?

 

2. She's looking for a 2 outlet shower for both overhead and handheld showering options. Mum has arthritis in her hands, so I'm looking for a a decent handle for her to use. I was thinking of something like this type of handle https://www.victorianplumbing.co.uk/bosa-triple-round-concealed-thermostatic-shower-valve-chrome or https://www.victorianplumbing.co.uk/summit-concealed-thermostatic-triple-shower-valve  but then I also saw this one with buttons https://www.victorianplumbing.co.uk/cruze-twin-modern-round-push-button-shower-valve-with-2-outlets

 

Any thoughts on those good or bad for arthritic hands?

 

Are the valves able to operate both shower heads at the same time or do they vary from valve to valve?

 

Something I saw @Nickfromwales mentioned in another post, was getting a good thermostatic valve that adjusts quickly with a combi boiler. There's only 2 of them in the house, but they have been known to use a tap when the other is in the shower, so to save arguments, are there certain shower valve units/makes  to go for?

 

Thanks for any help,

 

Vijay

 

[ProDave]

We have a shower mixer very much like your first link.

 

While we like it, it may not be the best for your mum.  The top and bottom levers are the flow to the two different shower heads and are easy to turn.  But the middle handle is the temperature setting.  It is a completely round "knob" with no lever, so when wet requires a fair bit of grip to turn it.  You don't need to turn it very often but with weak hands it will frustrate her when she does.

 

Keep looking to see if you can find one that has a lever for the temperature knob as well.

 

The one in your second link also has the same "fault" that the temperature knob is a slippery round knob with no features to grab, rather than a lever.

[Temp]

For the WC...

 

My recommendation is to go with something more or less standard size and shape so replacement seats are easy. 

 

Avoid a very short projection pan unless you are sure the loo seat will stay up.

 

There are also a few pans around with non-standard hole spacing (eg distance between flush pipe, bolts and waste pipe).

 

I'm also not a fan of WC that only allow the seat to be fixed from above. Invariably I've found the expanding plug like device rotates allowing the seat to move. Much less likely on those that have "nut" on the underside.

Edited May 23, 2021 by Temp

[Vijay]

@ProDave good shout and the exact reason I wanted to ask, you've potentially saved me a headache. It's looking like the only options are square controls https://www.victorianplumbing.co.uk/milan-triple-square-concealed-thermostatic-shower-valve-chrome   or round ones with bars https://www.victorianplumbing.co.uk/cruze-triple-round-concealed-thermostatic-shower-valve-chrome  or the jump to something like an Aqualiser digital control (which from the a post from Nick didn't sound like the greatest idea with a combi and future issues).

 

@Temp  Never thought about seat replacements, but you are totally right as I had a headache finding a replacement for mine which wasn't the normal shape. Projection will be around the 550's at least and not just for the seat staying up - that was an interesting conversation with my Mum saying when a guy is sitting down for a number two and needs a wee lol

 

Very good point about the seat fixings and even when tight, I've found they all seam to end up doing what you said and letting the seat slip. I thought they were all like those plugs fittings now to make fitting easier? So some still come with a proper fixing nut?

[Vijay]

Visited a few places and came across these https://www.vado.com/notion-2-outlet-2-handle-thermostatic-valve  which might be easy to use? Was told they are a very good make (like they'd say anything else) but has anyone installed or come across Vado shower valves?

 

If anyone has any install pics of their shower valves/pipework, I'd really appreciate seeing them

[Faz]

Stuck those Vado ones in 88 flats in London - didn't have any issues with them.  These were handed over in late 2016.

 

They are pricey though....

[Faz]

Don't be tempted to use the matching wall hung Vado sink tap though - the tap body has about 1.5mm of tolerance to the final tiled wall position on first fix to be able to set the taps square as the backer plates screw on ?.

[Vijay]

Cheers Faz. Always happy to pay a bit extra if the quality is there - especially when they are sunk into a wall.

 

Will be normal basin taps, thankfully my Mum doesn't like the wall outlet taps.

 

Anyone else had any experience of Vado shower valves?

[Vijay]

Need some more help with this shower valve guys (never thought it could be this confusing). I'm being told different things (that's when suppliers/manufacturers even get back to me), but am I right in saying you don't get any control over the flow/pressure from 2 way/outlet shower valves? I've looked at both 2 control/handles and 3 and the only difference is the 2 control just diverts the water to one or the other outlet, where the 3 control allows you to have one or both outlets on at the same time. Neither of them control flow/pressure.

 

The water supply is from a combi boiler and the mains water pressure is approx 3 bar. I'm a little concerned that the water from the overhead and handheld shower outlets will be too much with no way of adjusting them. What's that like in real world usage?

[Nickfromwales]

Ok. It’s only a SEQUENTIAL valve that gives you cold flow at 100% which you then keep rotating to get the heat through until happy and showering. 
The majority of other thermostatic mixers will have a lever valve which pulls towards you for 0-100% flow rates, and swings left to right for temp control. 
Vado is excellent stuff for the money btw. I’ve fitted loads of the stuff and never had a single issue. 
The Bristan valve that @onoff linked and used is very good for the money, and easy to use. Great flow rates etc.  Heap enough to buy one for spares. 
Same tor the WC seats, just buy 2 for spares and get on with your life   

[Vijay]

@Nickfromwales thanks mate. You say the majority of other thermostatic mixer will be able to adjust the flow rate, but I'm really struggling to find a concealed mixer valve, which 2 outlets can be controlled separately, pressure/flow can be adjusted and can easily be used but someone with arthritis. Websites of suppliers and manufacturers don't state if there's pressure control. Even Bristan don't show that information ?

 

Can't see a concealed one from onoff. Do you mean this one linked by onoff? https://www.victorianplumbing.co.uk/hudson-reed-reign-triple-concealed-thermostatic-shower-valve-round-plate-rei3411?

[Wil]

We had something similar to your first post with a combi in the old house. Bogs always flushing, kitchen tap running etc. It was a storage combi with a small tank if that makes a difference.

 

Bottom lever did the handheld, middle the temp and Top the main shower head. You could run both at once an as much or as little as the pressure could give you.  

 

If you're not wedded to the modern type, ours had much bigger lever handles which were easier to operate. Something like this:

https://www.victorianplumbing.co.uk/trafalgar-traditional-triple-concealed-thermostatic-shower-valve

[Vijay]

It makes sense the more you open the more pressure you get, but some don't seem to work that (so I'm told) - that's what's doing my head in, adverts and website don't mention it

 

I showed my Mum valves like that but she does like the modern valves

[Nickfromwales]

3 hours ago, Vijay said:

@Nickfromwales thanks mate. You say the majority of other thermostatic mixer will be able to adjust the flow rate, but I'm really struggling to find a concealed mixer valve, which 2 outlets can be controlled separately, pressure/flow can be adjusted and can easily be used but someone with arthritis. Websites of suppliers and manufacturers don't state if there's pressure control. Even Bristan don't show that information ?

 

Can't see a concealed one from onoff. Do you mean this one linked by onoff? https://www.victorianplumbing.co.uk/hudson-reed-reign-triple-concealed-thermostatic-shower-valve-round-plate-rei3411?

Yup. That’s reasonably easy to turn.

@Onoff, can you provide some feedback as to how much effort the valve needs to turn the two flow valves plz?  

The centre control is temp so basically set n forget. 

[Nickfromwales]

If this needs to be fit for purpose then this could be a plan. 
Set this concealed into the wall. Infirm friendly and thermostatic with good flow control. 
Then pipe in the wall to one of these types of one in two out stand alone diverter valves ( choose one that matches the shower valve as best as possible ) and then pipe from the two outlets of that to the head and the handset. 
That’s your lot mate. After that, proper disability recognised units are just single output to a hose and spray for assisted bathing eg no dual setup. 

[Onoff]

On 18/07/2021 at 19:16, Nickfromwales said:

The Bristan valve that @onoff linked and used is very good for the money, and easy to use. Great flow rates etc.

 

10 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

@Onoff, can you provide some feedback as to how much effort the valve needs to turn the two flow valves plz?  

 

Don't think I put a link up here? Not a Bristan anyway, I used a Hudson Reed Reign. I think @ProDave used the same one.

 

Dead easy to turn imo BUT arthritis is a funny thing, it causes lack of grip, wrist action is hampered etc. (My old man is riddled with poly arthritis).

 

Worse case I reckon it'd be easy enough to print some clip on/off extensions for these handles to give more leverage.

 

 

[Nickfromwales]

9 hours ago, Onoff said:

 

 

Don't think I put a link up here? Not a Bristan anyway, I used a Hudson Reed Reign. I think @ProDave used the same one.

 

Dead easy to turn imo BUT arthritis is a funny thing, it causes lack of grip, wrist action is hampered etc. (My old man is riddled with poly arthritis).

 

Worse case I reckon it'd be easy enough to print some clip on/off extensions for these handles to give more leverage.

 

 

Ah yes, Hudson sorry. Long day(s). They look the same as a Bristan I fitted so brain just hit autopilot as it does occasionally ?

[Nickfromwales]

This might tick the boxes. 
Link

 

Large simple single lever, multi function plus a reasonably useable driver for switching between hose and head. That will probably be a 2 click flow rate, medium and fast ( as you pull the lever out it will click into position one then you keep pulling for position two ). You’d have to confirm that, but that is a signature setup for the higher end manufacturers. Swing left to right for temp. 
Send this to a complimenting diverter valve for head / hose. 
Downside is, you’d have to feed the hot side via a TMV as I don’t think these are thermostatic. Upside is, zero risk of accidental scalding as you will have already capped the max hot temp input eg an inadvertent move of the lever to the hot side would not give hotter than say 38oC ( or whatever you set the TMV to ). 
Upside 2, this is bombproof and future proof. 

[Vijay]

11 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

Yup. That’s reasonably easy to turn.

@Onoff, can you provide some feedback as to how much effort the valve needs to turn the two flow valves plz?  

The centre control is temp so basically set n forget. 

 

Prodave commented earlier that the centre valve can need a bit of grip to turn especially with wet hands. I would agree that it could be set and forget if there was one of them, but my elderly parents bicker over anything, so I can imagine them having different shower temps and that causing another argument lol

 

11 hours ago, Onoff said:

 

 

Don't think I put a link up here? Not a Bristan anyway, I used a Hudson Reed Reign. I think @ProDave used the same one.

 

Dead easy to turn imo BUT arthritis is a funny thing, it causes lack of grip, wrist action is hampered etc. (My old man is riddled with poly arthritis).

 

Worse case I reckon it'd be easy enough to print some clip on/off extensions for these handles to give more leverage.

 

 

 

Yep and it will probably get worse. Last thing I want to do is install a shower that my Mum struggles to use.

[Vijay]

11 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

If this needs to be fit for purpose then this could be a plan. 
Set this concealed into the wall. Infirm friendly and thermostatic with good flow control. 
Then pipe in the wall to one of these types of one in two out stand alone diverter valves ( choose one that matches the shower valve as best as possible ) and then pipe from the two outlets of that to the head and the handset. 
That’s your lot mate. After that, proper disability recognised units are just single output to a hose and spray for assisted bathing eg no dual setup. 

 

That would allow use of the 2 showers at once would it, it would be either handheld or overhead but not both at the same time?

[Vijay]

Called Bristan this morning and they said all their valves are water flow full on or fully off, no adjustment

 

I just can't believe/understand why they don't work like normal taps where you can control the output flow??

[Nickfromwales]

17 minutes ago, Vijay said:

 

That would allow use of the 2 showers at once would it, it would be either handheld or overhead but not both at the same time?

Either/or most prob, but it may have a middle position doing 50/50. Would you really need both on at the same time ?  
Starting to think a digital mixer is your only choice here. 
Deeper pockets will get you this;
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Kohler-K-2971-KS-NA-HiFlow-Rite-Temp-Pressure-Balancing-Valve-one-size-/174780823037?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l6249&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0

 

You’ll also need this;

https://www.homeloft.uk/products/kohler-kt53214cp-refinia-valve-trim-with-pushbutton-diverter-valve-not-included-polished-chrome

 

Nice single lever, integral user set high temp ( anti scald ) arrest, and a simple push button for diverting from head to hose. 
 

Thats as good as it gets me thinks. You’ll need to sniff out a UK supplier to get accurate prices, but Kohler is very good stuff, up there with HansGrohe and spares and after sales will be ongoing. You can buy a service / overhaul kit now and be right for 15-20 years of trouble free motoring. 
Good luck. Sounds like you need it. ?

[Vijay]

I did wonder about digital controls but I remember a post you made about more things to go wrong  Something maybe I need to look into more though..............

While looking at the Hudson Reed valves a bit more, noticed this one https://www.victorianplumbing.co.uk/hudson-reed-art-triple-concealed-thermo-shower-valve-art3211 which could tick the boxes. I think she could grip those controls and it says "accurate flow control". I've emailed Hudson Reed to ask them exactly what that means

 

Also noticed this along the lines of what you've mentioned https://www.victorianplumbing.co.uk/duravit-b-1-single-lever-shower-mixer-with-diverter-for-concealed-installation-b14210012010

Edited July 20, 2021 by Vijay

[Onoff]

If they're "getting to that age" then fit what YOU like. After all, it'll be you/the carers sitting them in the plastic garden chair hosing them down soon enough! ?

[Vijay]

scrap the Hudson Reed one, they've just said it's either on or off - I've no idea what they mean by accurate flow control then

 

10 minutes ago, Onoff said:

If they're "getting to that age" then fit what YOU like. After all, it'll be you/the carers sitting them in the plastic garden chair hosing them down soon enough! ?

 

lol that's not even something I want to think about!!!!!!!!!