New member problems with kitchen extension

[Bobby Dazzler]

Hello all.

 

We're based in West Yorksire and had hoped to start our kitchen extension building sideways from our small detached house. The planned build goes to within 0.8 metres of the party wall of our neighbours house which runs along one side of our driveway. We weren't informed of the party wall act by our Architect despite voicing concerns about how close we were building to the wall.

 

We only found out when the builder delivered some preliminary materials and the neighbour came out creating a fuss, despite seeming OK when we had mentioned it to her earlier. Her relative is a Quantity Surveyor and he sent us a very abrupt letter outlining Party Wall act and also stated we couldn't build within 1.5m of the wall due to a paragraph in the house deeds stating "access to inspect the wall to be allowed from time to time". They claim this is the minimum space they would require to erect scaffolding to enforce their right of access. We know he is well heeled and they have previous history of seeing legal disputes to the end.

Our only other option would be to build backwards but the space would be extremely cramped, problematic and probably not really worthwhile. We already have a Conservatory and the cost to demolish and rebuild there would be way out of our price range.

 

A few years ago the same neighbour built a conservatoy, the last three feet or so are alongside the wall of our standalone brick garage that runs along the boundary between the two gardens at the back of the house. I'm not sure if the garage would constitute a party wall but they certainly didn't send us a notification under the PWA 96.

 

This is very stressful and we're not really sure what to do. We've even read the builder could try to recoup the entire estimated cost of the build if we cancel, we've so far paid him a fairly significant deposit. From what we've seen he does seem like a decent guy but we're fearing the worst now.

 

Thanks for any wise words.

 

[Big Jimbo]

What a pain for you, and no doubt a worry. What your neighbour may have done near your garage some time ago is not really something you can look at now. (Bit late) Have a read online about the party wall act. It's not just about working on a party wall, but excavating within a certain distance to somebody's property etc. Have you looked at your house deeds to see what this clause with regards allowing access for wall inspection is ? If you can tell us what it actually say's in the deeds, we might be able to help more.

[PeterW]

40 minutes ago, Bobby Dazzler said:

stated we couldn't build within 1.5m of the wall due to a paragraph in the house deeds stating "access to inspect the wall to be allowed from time to time". They claim this is the minimum space they would require to erect scaffolding to enforce their right of access

That’s not correct. 
 

There is no real minimum, and a lot of houses are built 900mm or closer. Also, right of access to inspect is just that, it does not give right of access to erect scaffold without permission. There will be an additional clause that states about access for repair which would potentially require scaffolding but it would not be deemed usual by a surveyor to erect scaffold to inspect.  
 

The crux will be, how many times have they enacted the access, and who owns it ..?? They cannot stop you building on your own land, and as long as “reasonable” provision is made for access to inspect then you have no concerns. If they cannot show that they have used this - by erecting scaffold for the purpose - in the past 10 years then it would be highly unlikely that they could enforce anything. 
 

PWA is different, and you need to serve a PWA notice if you are digging below the foundations of the house next door.
 

This is the clause :

 

What does the Act say if I want to excavate near neighbouring buildings?
If you plan to:
 excavate, or excavate for and construct foundations for a new building or structure, within 3 metres of any part of a neighbouring owner's building or structure, where any part of that work will go deeper than the neighbour's foundations ; or
 excavate, or excavate for and construct foundations for a new building or structure, within 6 metres of any part of a neighbouring owner's building or structure, where any part of that work will meet a line drawn downwards at 45° in the direction of the excavation from the bottom of the neighbour's foundations 

 

So first and foremost, you need to decide how deep you are going ..!! If you are not going any lower than the existing property, and what would be deemed the same depth as your neighbour, then you do not need PWA approval. 
 

This is a really good guide - section 6 is what you need to review. 
 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/523010/Party_Wall_etc__Act_1996_-_Explanatory_Booklet.pdf

 

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Hi Big Jimbo and thanks for the reply. Yes we realise about the excavation aspects and think we know what we need to do in that respect. we're really surprised the Architect didn't mention it, even if just to give us a heads up. We suspect it's going to be either the far inferior plan B or no plan at all.

 

As for the deeds (we're assuming ours are the same generic ones as next door, but we may apply to land registry for theirs to be sure), they say

listed in the land rights under the property register

"full right and liberty to enter from time to time upon the the land hereby conveyed with or without workmen to repair the Southern wall of the dwelling house erected on the adjoining property".

It sounds like something Chaucer would write.

[Bobby Dazzler]

@Peter W  many thanks for that Peter.

We have lived there 23 years and in that time they have fixed a leaky gutter once and later replaced the guttering possibly both in the last 10 years. They didn't use scaffolding for either as far as I can remember although i suppose they could argue with only 0.8 metres to play with they would then need to use scaffolding. That was one of the many excuses offered, that it would cost them more money to get specialist scaffolding.

[Big Jimbo]

Fab Bobby Dazzler. Don't worry about next doors deeds. Yours says it all. If you want to build 0.8 mt from that wall you crack on. There is no stipulation as to how much room you have to allow for either them, or there tubby builder. There scaffolding etc is total tosh. Check up on the PWA and get your builder to confirm that he is only digging to the same depth as your existing foundations. Then you won't have to worry about the PWA.

Because you neighbour has been such an arse, I would be making it very difficult for them to ever come on my land.  Method statement required, and full insurance for any damage they might cause to your land or property.

[Big Jimbo]

P.S Good luck with the extension.......Now get on with it.

[Bobby Dazzler]

33 minutes ago, Big Jimbo said:

P.S Good luck with the extension.......Now get on with it.

Thanks Jimbo, your previous post made me laugh for the first time today !

[saveasteading]

Was the letter from a QS or the neighbour? Always worth remembering  that a QS is acting for their client. Their profession does not require them to be fair to you, or give the whole argument. So the 'needs 1.5m' appears to be a bluff. But check the deeds.

 

I think it would be reasonable to build the same distance as their wall is from the boundary, if that suits you. Otherwise what were they thinking when they built there?

Scaffold towers are available 600 wide, and from tube can be skinnier yet. You would no doubt allow the scaffold to straddle the boundary if necessary.

 

And I suggest re the party wall act, and distance to boundary,  you get a professional to summarise the situation and legalities, with reference to the deeds, PWA and your design. Then drop a copy to the neighbour, as a courtesy (really to put it on the record) ..'.this is why it does not come under the party wall act'. and is allowed to be 600/800 from the boundary.

And make absolutely sure your builder doesn't go 1 cm deeper than intended, on that wall,  as that neighbour will be watching.

 

Will you have enough space to build safely and well, without straying onto their side of the wall?

 

It is not your fault that the neighbour is making a fuss. They appear to be mistaken in their understanding, or just bullying (or hoping for the best). If you give in, you will likely grudge it forever. If you fall out, then so what? Doesn't look as if you are going to best mates anyway.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

4 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

Was the letter from a QS or the neighbour? Always worth remembering  that a QS is acting for their client. Their profession does not require them to be fair to you, or give the whole argument. So the 'needs 1.5m' appears to be a bluff. But check the deeds.

 

I think it would be reasonable to build the same distance as their wall is from the boundary, if that suits you. Otherwise what were they thinking when they built there?

Scaffold towers are available 600 wide, and from tube can be skinnier yet. You would no doubt allow the scaffold to straddle the boundary if necessary.

 

And I suggest re the party wall act, and distance to boundary,  you get a professional to summarise the situation and legalities, with reference to the deeds, PWA and your design. Then drop a copy to the neighbour, as a courtesy (really to put it on the record) ..'.this is why it does not come under the party wall act'. and is allowed to be 600/800 from the boundary.

And make absolutely sure your builder doesn't go 1 cm deeper than intended, on that wall,  as that neighbour will be watching.

 

Will you have enough space to build safely and well, without straying onto their side of the wall?

 

It is not your fault that the neighbour is making a fuss. They appear to be mistaken in their understanding, or just bullying (or hoping for the best). If you give in, you will likely grudge it forever. If you fall out, then so what? Doesn't look as if you are going to best mates anyway.

 

Hi Saveasteading

The QS is the neighbours relative, so yes a rather biased view. The neighbour did let slip that she feared it would devalue her property, this I suspect is the real cause of the rigorous opposition.

 

The wall in question is the north wall of their house so we'd be in big trouble if we strayed into their living room..

[saveasteading]

Ahhh. Their wall is on the boundary? With foundations into your ground?

 

Whatever, 600mmshould be enough.

[Bobby Dazzler]

1 minute ago, saveasteading said:

Ahhh. Their wall is on the boundary? With foundations into your ground?

 

Whatever, 600mmshould be enough.

Yes that's right. Also they are on a higher ground level than us as the entire street is on a slope with us near the top and them one higher. I suppose this would make triggering the 45 degree rule more likely ??. (i'm pretending to know what I'm talking about here).

[MikeSharp01]

1 hour ago, saveasteading said:

think it would be reasonable to build the same distance as their wall is from the boundary, if that suits you. Otherwise what were they thinking when they built there?

Scaffold towers are available 600 wide, and from tube can be skinnier yet. You would no doubt allow the scaffold to straddle the boundary if necessary.

And don't forget that you may want access to repair your wall at some point in the future so if you are happy with 800mm then they should be. (Assuming the whole 800mm is on your land.

[Bobby Dazzler]

23 minutes ago, MikeSharp01 said:

And don't forget that you may want access to repair your wall at some point in the future so if you are happy with 800mm then they should be. (Assuming the whole 800mm is on your land.

Vert true Mike, though I doubt they would take that view point.

[JFDIY]

Can you build on a raft and sidestep some of the foundations bluff

[PeterW]

4 hours ago, Bobby Dazzler said:

Yes that's right. Also they are on a higher ground level than us as the entire street is on a slope with us near the top and them one higher. I suppose this would make triggering the 45 degree rule more likely ??. (i'm pretending to know what I'm talking about here).

so you may find they have very deep foundations on your side if it’s stepped. What are you building ..? Double or single height ..?? 

[Marvin]

Just remember the important rules, my neighbours have informed me of, over the years.

 

1 You are entitled to a view.

2 If your tree leans over your neighbours fence they cannot cut it back within 10 feet of the boundary.

3 If you move your fence onto someone else's property after 10 years you can keep it.

4 If you want to move a bulk storage gas tank into your back garden you don't have to ask permission, just go down your neighbours private drive and trash the hedge leaning over. No worry.

5 You can build all you want because you need to, but no neighbours can build as it will destroy the neighbourhood. 

6 You can put your stereo in the back garden full blast and have parties on every hot Saturday in the summer, but your neighbours builders must only do silent working.

 

Have I missed any?

 

 

 

 

 

[saveasteading]

You have lots of interest and support here. Can we have a simple sketch to ensure we understand fully?

 

The party wall act is  process, not a prohibition. If you tell us what you really want to do, maybe it can be done.

[Temp]

There is a guide to the party wall act here... see page 19..

 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/party-wall-etc-act-1996-guidance

 

If you are digging within 3m of their building you only need to worry about the party wall act if you are digging deeper than the bottom of their foundations.  As I recall if you dont go deeper than theirs you dont need to do anything at all. On the other hand if you are going deeper then its going to get expensive as they can virtually force you to hire upto three surveyors. 

 

So if their founds are right on the edge of your property dig a trial hole to find out how deep they go. Photograph the hole with a ruler in it so its clear how deep they are. Tell your builder not to dig any deeper and tell your neighbour the Party Wall Act does not require you to do anything because you are not digging deeper than their foundations.

 

The other thing to note is that there is no penalty for a breech of the Party Wall Act. However they could try go to court and seek an injunction to get you to stop work until you have complied. Likewise if you were to damage their building the judge would look less kindly on you if you also failed to comply. But as i said above you will comply if you dont dig too deep.

 

8 hours ago, Bobby Dazzler said:

also stated we couldn't build within 1.5m of the wall due to a paragraph in the house deeds stating "access to inspect the wall to be allowed from time to time". They claim this is the minimum space they would require to erect scaffolding to enforce their right of access.

 

Lakeside hire do scaffolding towers that are 750mm and 600mm wide...

 

https://www.lakeside-hire.co.uk/narrow-scaffold-tower/

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 12, 2021 by Temp

[Bobby Dazzler]

Thanks so much everyone for all the good ideas. I'll try and get a rough sketch sorted today and post it.

Our biggest worry and the thing holding us back is the (possibly incorrect) fear that the worst case scenario is we could build our extension then they manage to get a court injunction forcing us to demolish it.

[Bobby Dazzler]

12 hours ago, PeterW said:

so you may find they have very deep foundations on your side if it’s stepped. What are you building ..? Double or single height ..?? 

hi Peter, it's a single storey kitchen.

[Bobby Dazzler]

Hi all. Here's a rough sketch and a couple of snips from the architect plans.

Thanks again!

[Big Jimbo]

That would be a fantastic addition to your house. You are not going to be made to take it down.....Your neighbour is just a bully.

[Bobby Dazzler]

2 minutes ago, Big Jimbo said:

That would be a fantastic addition to your house. You are not going to be made to take it down.....Your neighbour is just a bully.

Thanks Jimbo. We just need to be as sure as possible that they couldn't enforce a demolition order if we did build. Solicitors who specialise in this field are extremely hard to locate (even tried Law Society website) and presumably eye wateringly expensive and we're on a rather tight budget. We read that boundary disputes are one of the most lucrative fields for the legal profession.

 

[Big Jimbo]

There is no stipulation as to how much space you need to leave, them 800mm is more than enough.  Nobody is going to make you take down a building that is completly on your own land.