Building fence on boundary line

[Al1son]

  On 07/08/2022 at 19:22, Temp said:

 

If you put a 2m high fence around it then it certainly won't look like open amenity land, it will look like it's part of your private garden.

 

 

 

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The land is separated between our actual garden by a brick wall so other than providing assurances that'll it'll not be part of our private garden as it's a small insignificant area, I'm not sure what else we can do

[joe90]

  On 25/07/2022 at 08:47, Al1son said:

Attached is the proposal 

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Looking at this again, I wonder why No 71 has a green strip on that diagram? (Amenity land??) but they have fenced it in with their garden. I wonder why No 73 (yours) shows a black line from your back/side house wall junction to No 9, no one else on that diagram has this type of line??

[Al1son]

  On 07/08/2022 at 19:28, joe90 said:

Looking at this again, I wonder why No 71 has a green strip on that diagram? (Amenity land??) but they have fenced it in with their garden. I wonder why No 73 (yours) shows a black line from your back/side house wall junction to No 9, no one else on that diagram has this type of line??

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Good spot! Didn't notice that at all!

 

No idea what that would mean though

 

 

[joe90]

  On 07/08/2022 at 19:52, Al1son said:

Good spot! Didn't notice that at all!

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Where did that diagram come from?, do you have a diagram/drawing from your deeds?

[Al1son]

  On 07/08/2022 at 19:55, joe90 said:

Where did that diagram come from?, do you have a diagram/drawing from your deeds?

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Came from requestaplan online purchased a location plan which was required for the application.

 

Here are some other drawings I found on deeds and on the 1970 conveyance plan for the area

[joe90]

Thanks, those two contradict each other, red line shows the ownership boundary on the lower one but the other has that black line separating the side portion of land from house and garden, having had planning wars over my build I understand how difficult it is to fight them so depends how hardball you want to fight this. I will add that I went to appeal to the Secretary of State over my fight AND WON! (so I have a low opinion of planners 🤷‍♂️)

[Al1son]

  On 07/08/2022 at 20:16, joe90 said:

Thanks, those two contradict each other, red line shows the ownership boundary on the lower one but the other has that black line separating the side portion of land from house and garden, having had planning wars over my build I understand how difficult it is to fight them so depends how hardball you want to fight this. I will add that I went to appeal to the Secretary of State over my fight AND WON! (so I have a low opinion of planners 🤷‍♂️)

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If you zoom in the first pic the red line encloses the land into my ownership. Agree there is a black line but that doesn't denote as being anything

 

I'm waiting for the formal decision to come through at which point I'll appeal.

 

I'll chase the council again to prove its amenity land, provide the map, if they can't demonstrate or fail to respond. I'll provide this evidence to the planning inspectorate.

 

Secretary of state! Wow that must have been costly!

[joe90]

  On 07/08/2022 at 20:38, Al1son said:

Secretary of state! Wow that must have been costly!

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NO, having wasted money with a planning specialist for my planning applications (four) I did the appeal myself, no costs!!! In fact I found the appeal easier than dealing with the planners, they certainly knew more about how to deal with people than the local council did 🙄. Looking forward to hearing how you get on 👍

[Temp]

  On 07/08/2022 at 19:27, Al1son said:

 

The land is separated between our actual garden by a brick wall so other than providing assurances that'll it'll not be part of our private garden as it's a small insignificant area, I'm not sure what else we can do

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Is that a new wall as I can't see one in the photo. At least if there is a wall it's not inline with the garage wall or the black line on your plans. Is it angled so hidden behind the garage?

 

 

Edited August 8, 2022 by Temp

[Temp]

  On 07/08/2022 at 20:16, joe90 said:

Thanks, those two contradict each other, red line shows the ownership boundary on the lower one but the other has that black line separating the side portion of land from house and garden, having had planning wars over my build I understand how difficult it is to fight them so depends how hardball you want to fight this. I will add that I went to appeal to the Secretary of State over my fight AND WON! (so I have a low opinion of planners 🤷‍♂️)

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I don't see a major contradiction. Looking closely the first plan has a very faint red line same place as second one.

 

I think the brick wall referred to must be in the wrong place. Eg not in line with the garage wall as per the black line on the first plan or it would be visible in the photo of the site.

 

I'm afraid I think these plans just reinforce the idea that the site (in red) includes garden (bounded by black line/wall) and some amenity land (between black line and red). 

[ProDave]

If your intention is to stop it being a mess and stop dogs fouling it, then the low fence as the house the other side of the footpath seems to achieve that.  So why not do that low 1M fence straight away and start to get it tidied up?

[joe90]

  On 08/08/2022 at 08:21, Temp said:

I don't see a major contradiction. Looking closely the first plan has a very faint red line same place as second one.

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Ah, didn’t see that feint red line on my iPad unless I zoomed in a lot. But why is there a black line extending along the edge of the garage to the front path and back to the boundary?, this is not the same as the other end of the terrace 🤷‍♂️. Let’s see what the council say I guess.

[joe90]

  On 08/08/2022 at 08:31, ProDave said:

  So why not do that low 1M fence straight away and start to get it tidied up?

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+1, if you copy next door no one can complain as that was accepted and a precedent set, you can always add plants or gates later.

[Temp]

  On 08/08/2022 at 08:31, joe90 said:

Ah, didn’t see that feint red line on my iPad unless I zoomed in a lot. But why is there a black line extending along the edge of the garage to the front path and back to the boundary?, this is not the same as the other end of the terrace 🤷‍♂️. Let’s see what the council say I guess.

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Not sure but the house othe side of the path has similar line.

 

I think the garden wall should have been on that line but it has been angled back so not visible in the photo. 

[Al1son]

Attached is pic which shows the wall further along the path which separates our garden and the land

[PeterW]

Who has maintained the land to the right of the wall ..?? 

[Al1son]

  On 08/08/2022 at 19:15, PeterW said:

Who has maintained the land to the right of the wall ..?? 

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It was all overgrown, a bit of a jungle!

 

Was recently all cut down and cleared by us

[joe90]

  On 08/08/2022 at 16:08, Al1son said:

Attached is pic which shows the wall further along the path which separates our garden and the land

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Ah, so that’s where the black line comes from, didn’t see that wall before, but the land outside is within your deeds “red line”. That makes more sense.

[Al1son]

  On 08/08/2022 at 22:13, joe90 said:

Ah, so that’s where the black line comes from, didn’t see that wall before, but the land outside is within your deeds “red line”. That makes more sense.

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Yep but the council are claiming it's 'amenity land' 🤷‍♂️

[joe90]

Yes I know that, just saying I didn’t realise that a wall existed where that black line was. Just found this from a solicitor on a different forum. I think you need to wait and see how the council react to what you have done so far.

 

Planning classifications are normally not dependent upon who owns the land. SO it is quite possible to privately own public open space and that private owner would be bound by that classification. The local authority's land charges department will have the details alongside the planning department. 

[ProDave]

  On 09/08/2022 at 07:47, joe90 said:

Planning classifications are normally not dependent upon who owns the land. SO it is quite possible to privately own public open space and that private owner would be bound by that classification. The local authority's land charges department will have the details alongside the planning department. 

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So yet another way to tackle this, is put up that 1M fence as already discussed.  Mow, maintain and keep tidy this bit of land.  Then after whatever number of years it is (would need to look it up) apply for a certificate of lawful development for change of use from amenity to garden, on the basis the public have been excluded for x years and it has been exclusively used by you as garden.

 

To be honest, I don't know why you ever left it to get into such a mess?  Did you really like having an overgrown mess there which just encourages people to throw their litter to add to the mess?

[Al1son]

  On 09/08/2022 at 08:25, ProDave said:

So yet another way to tackle this, is put up that 1M fence as already discussed.  Mow, maintain and keep tidy this bit of land.  Then after whatever number of years it is (would need to look it up) apply for a certificate of lawful development for change of use from amenity to garden, on the basis the public have been excluded for x years and it has been exclusively used by you as garden.

 

To be honest, I don't know why you ever left it to get into such a mess?  Did you really like having an overgrown mess there which just encourages people to throw their litter to add to the mess?

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I think it's 10 years, we don't want to be waiting that long.

 

It was overgrown to begin with, we purchased the house recently, cleared the area at the time. The priority was to renovate internally upon which it was overgrown again and then subsequently cleared again

 

[Al1son]

I've spoken to a planning consultant who has advised if the planning inspectorate accepts the footpath is not 'used by vehicular traffic' then they can't refuse that is 'not in keeping with the open landscape of the area' and or that it's amenity land as it's irrelevant 

Edited August 9, 2022 by Al1son

[Al1son]

  On 09/08/2022 at 07:47, joe90 said:

Yes I know that, just saying I didn’t realise that a wall existed where that black line was. Just found this from a solicitor on a different forum. I think you need to wait and see how the council react to what you have done so far.

 

Planning classifications are normally not dependent upon who owns the land. SO it is quite possible to privately own public open space and that private owner would be bound by that classification. The local authority's land charges department will have the details alongside the planning department. 

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Thanks, I'm waiting for the council to provide evidence that it's amenity land

[Al1son]

Received the official decision, reason for refusal

 

The proposed development does not accord with part (a) under Paragraph A.1 under Part 2 Class A of Schedule 2 of the Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) (England) Order 2015 (as amended). As such, planning permission is required for the proposal. 

 

Slightly confused as no mention in the refusal that it's amenity land and that it's along a footpath etc