Maps used for Planning permission

[Dannytek]

2 minutes ago, PeterW said:

The consultation has started. It’s up to people to comment, and based on that it may go to committee depending on the scale etc. 
 

From the sounds of it this is a big development and it sounds like you’re not happy along with others. I would formally get your issues down in writing (especially the map issue but via the legal route) and also canvass neighbours and the councillors. Local papers are also good for drumming up support. 

If something untoward has happened and we have been given misinformation by parties can we go straight to the LA Ombudsman...... just trailed one of the 160 documents to see they have blocked my access completely to my driveway

 

on another of the friends properties they have put the start of a road randomly.

[Mr Punter]

If you and at least one other person object on the basis that the site plan is not correct it will go to committee and the planning officer will need to verify the  site / location plan.  Have you seen a plan or map that is at odds with the application plans?  If so, submit this with your objection.

[Dannytek]

3 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

If you and at least one other person object on the basis that the site plan is not correct it will go to committee and the planning officer will need to verify the  site / location plan.  Have you seen a plan or map that is at odds with the application plans?  If so, submit this with your objection.

Yes we have made a video too, is it worth submitting it? As link or something

[Mr Punter]

2 minutes ago, Dannytek said:

Yes we have made a video too, is it worth submitting it? As link or something

 

No, for an objection you just need to state facts.  If there is more than one valid objection it will be listened to.  The planners may ask you for evidence later, so keep all you have, with dates and times.

[Dannytek]

1 minute ago, Mr Punter said:

 

No, for an objection you just need to state facts.  If there is more than one valid objection it will be listened to.  The planners may ask you for evidence later, so keep all you have, with dates and times.

What’s the chances we make the comment, and they delete the file and resubmit one or the council remove it for them, as if the file never ever existed?

[PeterW]

4 minutes ago, Dannytek said:

What’s the chances we make the comment, and they delete the file and resubmit one or the council remove it for them, as if the file never ever existed?

 None at all

 

These have to be tracked and to be honest if you keep copies downloaded and screenshots you can see the changes. 
 

If that happened then... it’s fraud. 

[Mr Punter]

2 minutes ago, Dannytek said:

What’s the chances we make the comment, and they delete the file and resubmit one or the council remove it for them, as if the file never ever existed?

 

Who is they?  Are you based in Watergate?

[Dannytek]

3 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

 

Who is they?  Are you based in Watergate?

Various members of the council have been their advisors, and members of public affairs boards hired by applicants.

as such council members have been very odd towards us all and our questions. 

also there are loads of covenants on the site which have all be ignored which all our properties have embraced not breaking.

[Dannytek]

5 minutes ago, PeterW said:

 None at all

 

These have to be tracked and to be honest if you keep copies downloaded and screenshots you can see the changes. 
 

If that happened then... it’s fraud. 

Thanks for comments you have really helped out understanding the process.

it’s odd we were all refused planning at some stages over years due to covenants, and the type of area and because we added 8 extra potential cars. 
 

just funny looking back

[Mr Punter]

Covenants have nothing to do with planning consent.

[Dannytek]

2 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

Covenants have nothing to do with planning consent.

Oh really but they have used covenants before to deny applications. 
 

if a parcel has a covenant for properties having to be 40-50 feet back, and other properties are 40 feet back, don’t they have to be in keeping and abide to covenants as they know the covenants exist. But the plans are ignoring them

[Ferdinand]

 

This reply seems a bit convoluted, but I hope helps.

 

That would probably be a determination via Planning Law that looks to you like the Council responding to the Covenant. Covenants are what is called "not a relevant planning matter".

 

The covenant is a thing in private law (it may be called "contract law" or "property law" - not sure which) attached to a property's Deeds, which binds the owner, unless it has become impossible to enforce over the years by various means which do not need to be covered here (mainly people breaking an identical covenant and it not being enforced).

 

Anything that is the Council deciding a planning decision on the basis of covenants say "no building less than 50 feet back from the road" would usually be due to something similar-looking in planning law, which would perhaps be "sticking to the building line" or similar, which *is* a relevant concept in Planning Law / Policy. 

 

If the reference in the decision or background reasoning is explicitly to a Covenant and that can be proven, then imo in such circumstances an Appeal made explicitly on the basis that an application had been refused on the basis of a Covenant rather than a relevant Planning concept should (imo) succeed by arguing that the decision had used non-material planning matters in the determination.

 

F

[Dannytek]

7 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

That would probably be a determination via Planning Law that looks to you like responding to the Covenant.

 

The covenant is a thing in private law (it may be called contract law or property law) attached to a property Deeds, which binds the owner (unless it has become impossible to enforce over the years - eg by others getting away with ignoring the same covenant on other properties in the area. Complex area which would be justiciable via the High Court between private parties not a Planning determination. There are concepts on how those decisions are made, but it is a rabbithole that is not relevant here).

 

Anything that looks like Council deciding over covenants say "no building less than 50 feet back from the road" would be due to something in planning law, which would perhaps be "sticking to the building line" or similar, which *is* a relevant concept in Planning Law / Policy. 

 

If in such circumstances an Appeal had been made explicitly on the basis that an application had been refused on the basis of a Covenant rather than a relevant Planning concept, then I would expect the Appeal to succeed by arguing that the decision had used non-material planning matters in the determination.

 

F

Hi

 

so an argument of saying there is a covenant and they should be sticking to the building line of 50 feet back can be presented as a comment and argument 

 

but just saying there’s covenants of 2 houses only on a piece of land that proposes 20, cannot be presented....

 

am I right at understanding that

[Ferdinand]

21 minutes ago, Dannytek said:

Hi

 

so an argument of saying there is a covenant and they should be sticking to the building line of 50 feet back can be presented as a comment and argument 

 

but just saying there’s covenants of 2 houses only on a piece of land that proposes 20, cannot be presented....

 

am I right at understanding that

 

Yes, but your objection should be about "building line" not "building line because of this covenant" - because the "building line" is I think a relevant planning matter, but the covenant is not. That is the skill of being good at writing objectiions.

 

So don't give them the easy-out of saying "he's talking about covenants, so that objection is not relevant".

 

You may find this document useful - covenants between individual plots come under '"private issues between neighbours".

https://www.rochford.gov.uk/sites/default/files/Material Planning Considerations.pdf

 

There may be other stuff in Council Policy Documents, local plans etc.

 

There is a free independent advice service called "Planning Aid" which provides advice on general planning questions (see Google). They do not deal with individual proposals, so you would need to frame your question eg "is deviation from the Building Line a relevant planning matter?".

 

F 

[Ferdinand]

You seem to think that there is something reasonably big and dodgy going on.

 

One further option is to put your pack of information together and talk to a journo at the local paper.

 

Journos are always short of time, so in these cases you either need to provide them with a predigested story with nearly all the ducks in a row, or persuade someone to take it up as a personal crusade if you can convince them it is sufficiently whiffy.

 

When I was trying to get a planning app through using the "Council does not have an Approved Local Plan in place therefore there is a presumption in favour of development" exception the in the NPPF (National Planning Policy Framework), for some incomprehensible reason there was a series of stories on page 1 or 2 of the local paper everytime the Council had another difficulty in the process of trying to get the  Local Plan in place. The work consisted of pointing the journo to the relevant bit of text buried in an obscure Council document and explaining what it meant in a way which was interesting and understandable.

 

It's like an elevator pitch - they need a one page summary that grabs their attention. Do not come across as Mr Suburb.

 

F 

[Dannytek]

12 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

You seem to think that there is something reasonably big and dodgy going on.

 

One further option is to put your pack of information together and talk to a journo at the local paper.

 

Journos are always short of time, so in these cases you either need to provide them with a predigested story with nearly all the ducks in a row, or persuade someone to take it up as a personal crusade if you can convince them it is sufficiently whiffy.

 

When I was trying to get a planning app through using the "Council does not have an Approved Local Plan in place therefore there is a presumption in favour of development" exception the in the NPPF (National Planning Policy Framework), for some incomprehensible reason there was a series of stories on page 1 or 2 of the local paper everytime the Council had another difficulty in the process of trying to get the  Local Plan in place. The work consisted of pointing the journo to the relevant bit of text buried in an obscure Council document and explaining what it meant in a way which was interesting and understandable.

 

It's like an elevator pitch - they need a one page summary that grabs their attention. Do not come across as Mr Suburb.

 

F 

This and the above comment you made has been super useful thankyou.

 

if for example we had a lot of information of issues for a ombudsman to step in and look on basis of the application and conduct of LA, if it held up the site would/could damages come against us for delaying planning or getting it deferred or not accepted, based on us raising the issues.

[Ferdinand]

Sorry I don't know that.

 

One problem with complaints processes and ombudsmen is that redress does not happen until afterwards ie even you win the damn thing may well already have been built.

 

Whilst your goal may be to derail it first.

 

Local papers and similar  are useful in that respect in that they embarrass people *first*.

[Dannytek]

21 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

Sorry I don't know that.

 

One problem with complaints processes and ombudsmen is that redress does not happen until afterwards ie even you win the damn thing may well already have been built.

 

Whilst your goal may be to derail it first.

 

Local papers and similar  are useful in that respect in that they embarrass people *first*.

much appreciated, 

 

it’s just very odd esp as all our properties are 40-5 feet back, french cottage look and the overall size of our houses are bigger, which with plans looks silly with all these smaller houses and having either yellow bricks, red bricks .... then they have flats abound our houses or small houses..... one of the other residents has horsing stables and they have proposed a car park for flats right next their stables. 
 

as we all have larger gardens, based on plans we have potentially 20 properties overlooking us, as because the style of the houses in situ  and size of land we feel people will naturally keep looking at our property because it will be so odd to them and we would feel constantly watched especially the other residents with horses, they already feel people in cars will try to annoy them, by spooking their horses with loud music, slamming doors, reving, etc plus they feel people would watch the horses as it’s a view

Edited December 19, 2020 by Dannytek

[Temp]

16 hours ago, Dannytek said:

We asked for copy map end of last , and just received, we have until 27th for our comments.

 

 

I wouldn't post it. Last posting date is rapidly approaching.

[DevilDamo]

11 hours ago, Dannytek said:

How can I discover which certificate an application is?

One of the submitted/uploaded documents will be the Application Form. Open that and scroll to the end where you will see what ownership certificate has been completed.

[LSB]

11 hours ago, Dannytek said:

Planning has gone in, it was validated as soon as submitted.

 

there has been absolutely no consultations? When does this usually take place? We have asked but the council seem to refuse to answer this question.

 

I have no clue as to parish, when do people in council start looking at these documents?

It depends on where it is, we are a small parish in a rural area.  Any planning application for extension / conversion / new build gets automatically sent to the relevant parish council by email.  We (the parish council) then have 3 weeks to comment if we wish to. 

Validation is different, this is when the LPA accept the planning application is valid, i.e. it is paid for and it has the required paperwork.

There is then an open consultation period when anyone can comment, and I mean anyone, I could comment on a planning app 300 miles away if I spotted it for some reason.

Most comments are neighbours, highways, ecology, councils etc.

In the last 6 months we've done 3 barn conversions and a block of stables / menage.

Generally we don't bother with discharging of conditions or slight amendments etc.

But, it is possible to comment anonymously by email, you can't do this on the planning portal unless you give a fake name / address.

Any comments are posted on the planning portal as part of the application.

 

Of course the LPA don't have to take any notice of the PC, but in some cases if the PC say no, but the LPA is minded to say yes then this triggers the application going to committee.

 

But, this is in a rural area with lots of villages and only a couple of small towns.

If you are in a more urban area then it may not be quite the same, I'm not sure as I've not lived in a city since 1987.

 

 

 

[Mr Punter]

I have built on land covered by a covenant to prevent development.  I just obtained insurance cover from the seller.  Whole estates are frequently covered by covenants.  They are not always enforced or enforceable.

[Dannytek]

3 hours ago, Temp said:

 

I wouldn't post it. Last posting date is rapidly approaching.

You wouldn’t post it?

[ProDave]

My reading of this is he has moved buildings on the map, presumably to make it appear his proposals will affect them  less than it really will.

 

I would post a comment to the planners stating the map is wrong and enclosing a correct up to date OS map.  I would not claim fraud, just firmly point out that the planners might want to check the maps submitted with the application very carefully because they do not appear to correspond with an up to date OS map you have just paid for.

[Dannytek]

Can anything mention here be used for material planning considerations.

 

we feel like a done deal has been made behind close doors, it’s not that we want to stop the whole development, but just so many issues, that at least we want it to goto planning commitee, or have it delayed or differed or even thrown out for time being.

 

it’s just very odd esp as all our properties are 40-5 feet back, french cottage look and the overall size of our houses are bigger, which with plans looks silly with all these smaller houses and having either yellow bricks, red bricks .... then they have flats abound our houses or small houses..... one of the other residents has horsing stables and they have proposed a car park for flats right next their stables. 
 

as we all have larger gardens, based on plans we have potentially 20 properties overlooking us, as because the style of the houses in situ  and size of land we feel people will naturally keep looking at our property because it will be so odd to them and we would feel constantly watched especially the other residents with horses, they already feel people in cars will try to annoy them, by spooking their horses with loud music, slamming doors, reving, etc plus they feel people would watch the horses as it’s a view