Partial removal of party hedge and erection of 6ft fence

[Melissa]

I have a static park home which is located on the edge of a private residential caravan park. Adjacent to my property is a council owned house.

 

Running along the land border, between our properties, was a hedge, which has always acted as a party hedge but is indisputably on the caravan park. The current council tenants have conducted a partial removal of the hedge and have erected a 2 metre fence along the land border - over their retaining wall.

 

My park home has 2 doors and both face the hedgerow in question. My view is now of 6ft concrete girders holding the fence as there is so little hedge left. Toward the front of my property I have a fence of my own and the new fence is backing right onto it. 

 

No planning permission was sought from the local council and I was not made aware of any of their plans.

 

My question, for which I'm struggling to get an answer, is where does the height of this new fence need to be measured from? Is it from their garden floor, or is it from the raised land behind their retaining wall (the caravan park sits .9m above their garden floor) on which the land border lies, ie where it is?

 

Edited November 27, 2020 by Melissa

[ProDave]

I don't see anything done wrong there, the hedge will thicken out again, though from what little I can see in the pictures it seems pretty thin at ground level.

[Simplysimon]

so the wall in the middle of the first pic is the boundary and the new fence on the left has encroached by .75 - 1m onto caravan park? up to caraven park owner to deal with, though they probably won't want the aggro.

[Russell griffiths]

Cannot see a problem, it looks well on their side, if you measure from the ground on their side it would only be 4 foot high on your side so not much use really. 

 

TBH I think you will have a real struggle to get anybody to see much wrong with it. 

Trim the hedge hard back and do some more planting this winter. 

[Melissa]

The floor of my garden is level with the top of their retainer wall, so no, the fence is 2 foot high to us - higher to them. You can only see their side in these pictures, and you can only see council land. The fence has been put along the land border as an extension to the side of their garden. The hedge used to sit up to the wall. My question is regarding the height of the fence and whether they had the right to conduct a partial removal of the hedge without approaching me. 

[Melissa]

2 hours ago, ProDave said:

I don't see anything done wrong there, the hedge will thicken out again, though from what little I can see in the pictures it seems pretty thin at ground level.

 

You can't see the hedge at all, it's behind the fence.

[Melissa]

1 hour ago, Simplysimon said:

so the wall in the middle of the first pic is the boundary and the new fence on the left has encroached by .75 - 1m onto caravan park? up to caraven park owner to deal with, though they probably won't want the aggro.

No the fence runs along the land border. My property is to the left of the fence. 

[Russell griffiths]

Trying to establish the correct boundary is a mine field, land registrimaps are so inaccurate, do you think it is in the wrong place or are you annoyed they removed some of the hedge. 

 

You would not normally require council consent for a fence on a domestic property. 

Edited November 27, 2020 by Russell griffiths

[Melissa]

This is my garden - the fence has been put against my hedge on the other side. The neighbours are to the right of this picture.

[Melissa]

17 minutes ago, Russell griffiths said:

Trying to establish the correct boundary is a mine field, land registrimaps are so inaccurate, do you think it is in the wrong place or are you annoyed they removed some of the hedge. 

 

You would not normally require council consent for a fence on a domestic property. 

My question is, where does the height of this new fence need to be measured from? Is it from their garden floor, or is it from the raised land behind their retaining wall (the caravan park sits .9m above their garden so the fence is level with my garden floor) on which the land border lies, ie where it is?

[ProDave]

7 minutes ago, Melissa said:

My question is, where does the height of this new fence need to be measured from? Is it from their garden floor, or is it from the raised land behind their retaining wall (the caravan park sits .9m above their garden so the fence is level with my garden floor) on which the land border lies, ie where it is?

The ground level is where the fence sits.  The fact it happens to sit on a bit of raised land that then steps down towards the neighbours house makes no difference, so I see nothing wrong with the height.

 

As @Russell griffiths says who can prove it is on the right boundary line or not?  A strong clue is YOUR fence at the front.  They put their fence entirely inside your fence, so it might be reasonable to assume it is inside their land. And it might follow it they then keep it in a straight line and constant distance from the hedge all the way along, they were making a reasonable stab at the correct boundary line.

 

It is also reasonable to trim your hedge if it is overhanging their land.

 

From your side, nothing has changed, you still have your hedge, your garden has not got smaller. All that has changed is the hedge is a bit thinner and you can see the back of a new fence.  I am sure the hedge will thicken up again and hide it.

[Roundtuit]

All looks OK to me; not sure what the concern is really.  The hedge looks pretty bare for the first 6 ft anyway.  Trimming up anything overhanging the boundary on their side is seems fair and surely doesn't affect the view from your side, and measuring height from ground level immediately adjacent to the fence seems reasonable.

 

[Melissa]

Just now, ProDave said:

The ground level is where the fence sits.  the fact it happens to sit on a bit of raised land that then steps down towards the neighbours hose makes no difference, so I see nothing wrong with the height.

 

As @Russell griffiths says who can prove it is on the right boundary line or not?  A strong clue is YOUR fence t the front.  They put their fence entirely inside your fence, so it might be reasonable to assume it inside their land. and it might follow it they then keep it in a straight line and constant distance from the hedge all the way along, they were making a reasonable stab at the correct boundary line.

 

It is also reasonable to trim your hedge if it is overhanging their land.

 

From your side, nothing has changed, you still have your hedge, your garden has not got smaller. All that has changed is the hedge is a bit thinner and you can see the back of a new fence.  I am sure the hedge will thicken up again and hide it.

There is no land border dispute, nor am I questioning whether I could grow the hedge out. This is to do with their rights to strip a party hedge back and the height of the fence. Do you know the answers? 

[Melissa]

2 minutes ago, Roundtuit said:

All looks OK to me; not sure what the concern is really.  The hedge looks pretty bare for the first 6 ft anyway.  Trimming up anything overhanging the boundary on their side is seems fair and surely doesn't affect the view from your side, and measuring height from ground level immediately adjacent to the fence seems reasonable.

 

There was no fence before. They've stripped back the hedge and put up the fence - not sure why. So they can consider ground level as where they've put the fence?

[ProDave]

3 minutes ago, Melissa said:

There is no land border dispute, nor am I questioning whether I could grow the hedge out. This is to do with their rights to strip a party hedge back and the height of the fence. Do you know the answers? 

I have given my answer. a 2M high fence in that position is permitted development and I believe they have correctly measured the height from the ground level it sits on.

 

I also believe all they have done is trimmed the hedge that was trespassing on their property back to allow them to put the fence there.

 

You seem to be looking for a dispute with your neighbour?

[Simplysimon]

if i had a hedge as a border which the neighbour owned an i wished to build a fence along it, i would cut it hard back to the trunks, build the fence tight and try to ensure i didn't kill the hedge

[Roundtuit]

1 minute ago, Melissa said:

There was no fence before. They've stripped back the hedge and put up the fence - not sure why. So they can consider ground level as where they've put the fence?

Maybe to keep a dog in or something? 

[Simplysimon]

maybe they're trying, forlornly,to stop the cat $hi££ing in their garden ?

[Melissa]

7 minutes ago, ProDave said:

I have given my answer. a 2M high fence in that position is permitted development and I believe they have correctly measured the height from the ground level it sits on.

 

I also believe all they have done is trimmed the hedge that was trespassing on their property back to allow them to put the fence there.

 

You seem to be looking for a dispute with your neighbour?

So are you saying that a border hedge is trespassing a neighbouring property by crossing the land border line? It doesn't need to encroach into their garden ie over the wall?

[ProDave]

Just now, Melissa said:

So are you saying that a border hedge is trespassing a neighbouring property by crossing the land border line? It doesn't need to encroach into their garden ie over the wall?

Yes.

 

Or are you arguing that the wall should be the boundary?

[Ferdinand]

Some people just don't like hedges, or these may be - as has been hinted - taking their newly clarified (couple of years ago) responsibility to keep their dog in very seriously.

 

(Are you sure it wasn't put up by the Council?)

 

The definition of "Ground Level next to a building" from the General Permitted Development Order is this:

 

"

2 - Interpretation

..

2) Unless the context otherwise requires, any reference in this Order to the height of a building or of plant or machinery is to be construed as a reference to its height when measured from ground level; and for the purposes of this paragraph “ground level” means the level of the surface of the ground immediately adjacent to the building or plant or machinery in question or, where the level of the surface of the ground on which it is situated or is to be situated is not uniform, the level of the highest part of the surface of the ground adjacent to it."

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/596/made

 

by analogy I think the 2m of permitted fence height will be taken from the highest level of natural ground next to the fence. Which either means the highest raised bed level, or the path level if the boundary is actually where the half-high wall is.

 

As that difference in height is minimal, I don't think you will get far on that route, especially as the hedge is still taller than the fence.

 

Whether the boundary is at the root of the hedge plants, or along the edge of their path, might be a bit more interesting. And for that you could perhaps check their or your landlord's deeds from the Land Registry to see if any boundary features are marked, or interpretation mentioned. There will historical stuff about what happened in the contract when the houses were build on what was presumably a field.

 

I think it was correct above to remark that your LL just won't want the aggro. To the LL, that is unlikely to be enough to be more important than the neighbour relationship.

 

Where does that leave it? The one good thing is that them having put a galumphing great fence there means that they can't easily get at the hedge to attack it any more. At least without a ladder.

 

I honestly don't think you can gain anything from this, apart from a poisoned neighbour relationship and lots of conflict. Life's too short. If you already don't like them relax that now you can't even see them.

 

I suggest keeping your side of the hedge carefully trimmed so it grows more bushy leaves by doing a shaping trim next spring to get light to the lower half, and keep trimming back a few inches inside the leaf surface just before the growing season and perhaps in August (watch for birds' nests) to help the leaf surface become more solid. And perhaps plant a climber or two to scramble through it, such as a  traditional honeysuckle.

 

I would also perhaps discuss this over at gardenlaw.co.uk if you want more, where they are more specialised on boundaries than we are. I am also Ferdinand over there.

 

HTH

 

Ferdinand

[DevilDamo]

As others have said, the height is measured from the highest natural ground level adjacent to the proposal(s).

 

If you really want to go down the route of making sure the height is acceptable in PD terms, then look to get in touch with your LPA. A Planning or Enforcement Officer would carry out a site visit to check the necessary regulations.

[Russell griffiths]

11 hours ago, Melissa said:

There is no land border dispute, nor am I questioning whether I could grow the hedge out. This is to do with their rights to strip a party hedge back and the height of the fence. Do you know the answers? 

They are legally entitled to remove any vegetation back to the boundary, up to the full height

as long as, it doesn’t harm the tree/ hedge doing so. 

It would be fairly sensible to think that you would need to allow a bit of space to erect the new fence. 

[Melissa]

3 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

Some people just don't like hedges, or these may be - as has been hinted - taking their newly clarified (couple of years ago) responsibility to keep their dog in very seriously.

 

(Are you sure it wasn't put up by the Council?)

 

The definition of "Ground Level next to a building" from the General Permitted Development Order is this:

 

"

2 - Interpretation

..

2) Unless the context otherwise requires, any reference in this Order to the height of a building or of plant or machinery is to be construed as a reference to its height when measured from ground level; and for the purposes of this paragraph “ground level” means the level of the surface of the ground immediately adjacent to the building or plant or machinery in question or, where the level of the surface of the ground on which it is situated or is to be situated is not uniform, the level of the highest part of the surface of the ground adjacent to it."

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/596/made

 

by analogy I think the 2m of permitted fence height will be taken from the highest level of natural ground next to the fence. Which either means the highest raised bed level, or the path level if the boundary is actually where the half-high wall is.

 

As that difference in height is minimal, I don't think you will get far on that route, especially as the hedge is still taller than the fence.

 

Whether the boundary is at the root of the hedge plants, or along the edge of their path, might be a bit more interesting. And for that you could perhaps check their or your landlord's deeds from the Land Registry to see if any boundary features are marked, or interpretation mentioned. There will historical stuff about what happened in the contract when the houses were build on what was presumably a field.

 

I think it was correct above to remark that your LL just won't want the aggro. To the LL, that is unlikely to be enough to be more important than the neighbour relationship.

 

Where does that leave it? The one good thing is that them having put a galumphing great fence there means that they can't easily get at the hedge to attack it any more. At least without a ladder.

 

I honestly don't think you can gain anything from this, apart from a poisoned neighbour relationship and lots of conflict. Life's too short. If you already don't like them relax that now you can't even see them.

 

I suggest keeping your side of the hedge carefully trimmed so it grows more bushy leaves by doing a shaping trim next spring to get light to the lower half, and keep trimming back a few inches inside the leaf surface just before the growing season and perhaps in August (watch for birds' nests) to help the leaf surface become more solid. And perhaps plant a climber or two to scramble through it, such as a  traditional honeysuckle.

 

I would also perhaps discuss this over at gardenlaw.co.uk if you want more, where they are more specialised on boundaries than we are. I am also Ferdinand over there.

 

HTH

 

Ferdinand

Thank you for your help. I am not looking to gain anything from them putting up the fence, I was just bemused to see it and curious to it's height! The land deeds show the border of the caravan park as the hedge. The caravan park was indeed put on a field, although it's been here 50+ years now. The area is a rural village and the fence has consequently caught the attention of a few other neighbours. Everyone on the street own their properties, as does everyone on the caravan park so it's curious that elderly tenants can make such landscape changes - will the fence be considered permanent do you know, or will it leave when the tenants leave the property? 

[Ferdinand]

It will be removed if the LL wants it removed, I would think.

 

F