Ecodan ASHP

[LA3222]

I have been looking some more at these ASHP and its slightly confusing. I'm sure with a bit more reading I will suss it out but as members on here may have/may understand this already it may save me some time!!

 

The Flow Temperature Controllers for the ASHP - what is what? What is required?

 

I see the FTC2 is a medium sized box but then confusing there are digital controllers labelled FTC5 or FTC6???

 

I believe that they are not the same thing even though the name is the same. Images I see has the FTC2 sat on the tank, does this have some role to play with the mitsubishi pre plumbed UVC? If so, do I require this if I go for a Telford cylinder? 

 

The FTC5 i assume I will need as this is the interface with the ASHP, allows setting inputs etc.

 

I intend to go with the Ecodan ASHP but a UVC from elsewhere.  If someone can clarify what else I need with it in terms of controllwrs etc that would be great ? 

 

TIA

[Dan F]

Apparently there are significant availability issues with Ecodan currently.   If you need it soon, I'd ask about availability before finalizing details.  Also told that the availability of some other brands is also being impacted by Ecodan shortage.   

 

What has your supplier told you @joth? Or was yours ordered some time ago?

 

Edited November 22, 2020 by Dan F

[PeterW]

FTC 2 comes with a remote header unit but is not as advanced as the FTC 6 remote head unit which is smart grid ready (ie can use 3rd party API connections for low price energy) and the FTC 6 is much more advanced when it comes to room controls etc. 
 

Other than that - they are pretty similar. 

[joth]

9 minutes ago, PeterW said:

FTC 6 is much more advanced when it comes to room controls etc. 

I imagine you mean FTC 5? 

 

16 minutes ago, Dan F said:

What has your supplier told you @joth? Or was yours ordered some time ago?

Ordered  in July I'll chase it up and find where we are. We move in in Jan so worst case could get by until next winter before installing it...

[PeterW]

22 minutes ago, joth said:

I imagine you mean FTC 5? 

 

No I mean FTC 6 - latest generation controller from Mitsubishi 

 

https://les.mitsubishielectric.co.uk/products/heating/domestic/control/ftc6-controller

 

[LA3222]

After another look i think my head has cleared a bit!!! FTC2s are for big buildings like flats etc, FTCs 5/6 are single units for an individual house.

 

So if I buy an Ecodan ASHP I also need either an FTC5 or FTC6 controller to go with it? 

 

I then need to get a third party cylinder to suit and bobs your uncle??

Edited November 22, 2020 by LA3222

[PeterW]

The FTC 2 comes with a wall box - the big white box - and a remote head or main controller that is similar to a PZ-61 Lossnay remote. The FTC 5 & 6 still come with the wall box, which on the Pre-Plumbed cylinder is attached directly as they have 3 sensors that the system need to control water temperatures which are all available on the tank pipework. These are connected to the box, and the box is connected to the main controller. 
 

This is a link to the FTC 6 ( or PAC-IF07(1-3)B-E to give it its part number) installation manual and you will see on page 2 what is included in the box. 

https://library.mitsubishielectric.co.uk/pdf/book/Ecodan_FTC6_PAC-IF071-3B-E_Installation_Manual_BH79D843H03?model_query=PAC-IF071B-E#page-1

[LA3222]

14 minutes ago, PeterW said:

The FTC 2 comes with a wall box - the big white box - and a remote head or main controller that is similar to a PZ-61 Lossnay remote. The FTC 5 & 6 still come with the wall box, which on the Pre-Plumbed cylinder is attached directly as they have 3 sensors that the system need to control water temperatures which are all available on the tank pipework. These are connected to the box, and the box is connected to the main controller. 
 

This is a link to the FTC 6 ( or PAC-IF07(1-3)B-E to give it its part number) installation manual and you will see on page 2 what is included in the box. 

https://library.mitsubishielectric.co.uk/pdf/book/Ecodan_FTC6_PAC-IF071-3B-E_Installation_Manual_BH79D843H03?model_query=PAC-IF071B-E#page-1

Got me some heavy reading to do!! It was the images of the pre plumbed mitsubishi cylinders which had me confused as they show the box attached to the cylinder. So, I still have all that, it just sits on the wall connected to the third party cylinder rather than on it. 

[PeterW]

Yep - there will be a DHW sensor that goes into one of the pockets on the Telford UVC and then two onto the flow and return from memory. 
 

Are you installing this yourself ..?

[SuperJohnG]

@LA3222 good questions. The ecodan website is poor as is any literature you can find on the units themselves. Albeit this is exactly where I am aimed it makes me question how easy it will be to with the lack of clear guidance frok the manufacturers. I haven't contacted a rep yet though.  

[Dan F]

1 hour ago, SuperJohnG said:

@LA3222 good questions. The ecodan website is poor as is any literature you can find on the units themselves. Albeit this is exactly where I am aimed it makes me question how easy it will be to with the lack of clear guidance frok the manufacturers. I haven't contacted a rep yet though.  

 

Did you find the databook?  80Mb of info Ecodan fun!

 

https://library.mitsubishielectric.co.uk/pdf/book/ATW_Databook_R32_2020

[LA3222]

8 hours ago, PeterW said:

Yep - there will be a DHW sensor that goes into one of the pockets on the Telford UVC and then two onto the flow and return from memory. 
 

Are you installing this yourself ..?

I was hoping go, given the frequent mentions of people successfully self installing i figured it would be relatively straight forward.

 

Now I'm thinking otherwise. I dont doubt I can do it myself, I just hadn't anticipated the amount of pre reading necessary to get myself up to speed on it all.

 

I've been doing some reading on W plans etc and that all makes sense to me now. I'm reading up on the other aspects of the setup now such as what goes on the cylinder, D1 requirements etc.

[LA3222]

6 hours ago, Dan F said:

 

Did you find the databook?  80Mb of info Ecodan fun!

 

https://library.mitsubishielectric.co.uk/pdf/book/ATW_Databook_R32_2020

Cheers Dan, I was looking for something else to read to fill all that spare time I have???

[joth]

10 hours ago, PeterW said:

No I mean FTC 6 - latest generation controller from Mitsubishi 

 

https://les.mitsubishielectric.co.uk/products/heating/domestic/control/ftc6-controller

 

 

Thank you @PeterW, my search completely failed to find that. I'll blame their website (again!)

 

Interestingly from what I can find in the MI it seems the smart grid readiness input is identical to that in the FTC 5, a 4 state dry contact input (states normal, recommend on, force on, force off). The difference seems to be FTC6 allows more SW configuration of what exactly those states mean

As I was planning to use this feature I guess that means I should try and ensure I'm getting the FTC 6.

 

Cheers

Edited November 23, 2020 by joth

[PeterW]

I think for both @LA3222 and @joth your key issue with Mitsubishi and any install will be the (lack of) documentation and also any warranty for the units as from memory Mitsubishi require a registered installer to complete the commissioning to get the full 5 or 7 year warranty. This is offset by the fact there isn’t a lot to go wrong on these units and they are well made, but access to the non standard features of the controllers requires a lot of hunting around and in Mitsubishi’s case I believe requires their installer software on a laptop to reprogramme the SD card on later models. 
 

Many on here have self installed, but the units have been rebadged Carrier units or other monoblock units that have simplified control systems. I’ve installed an Ice Energy unit that turns out is a Mitsubishi under the lid, but only needs a 24v control sequence on 3 contacts to make it run - nothing too difficult there then ..! 
 

Self install needs a good understanding of the different valve and control configurations - and how your controls will integrate into the overall system. It’s fine having something such as the Smart Grid override in the FTC 6, but how do you ensure that you’re actually taking any benefit, and what has the final say as to which system is in control ..?? I know the system @TerryE has built is very elegant in it’s simplicity using nodeRed, but a lot of this comes down to supportability and future proofing. I built a simple RPi based solution to control the ASHP I installed to control the power levels based on flow temperature etc, and actually realised it’s not needed and it runs on 80% power permanently as the unit itself does some cleverness so I send it a simple start and stop from a standard heating controller. I’ve integrated 2 electric towel rails, 2 electric UFH systems, a 300 litre UVC and 85sqm of UFH into 2 off the shelf controllers that any plumber or electrician can replace to make things simple. 
 

I think there are misconceptions about the costs of installs from suppliers but a lot of this is down to the RHI / MCS premium charged. If you do all the basic plumbing and get the pipes to the right places for ASHP connection and the tank in place (welcome to the joy of needing a G3 certificate) then you will be left with a couple of days for the engineer to hook it all up and commission. Those are the jobs they like doing, as they don’t need to spend hours drilling walls and fitting pipework etc, and tbh if you ring around you will probably find a local refrigeration company that are Mitsubishi certified who can do this for you at a reasonable price. If you go to one of the ones offering the “boiler replacement for RHI” then expect the MCS premium to be added. 

 

 

[joth]

Please please let's not turn this into yet another RHI pros/cons debate, but yes I'm getting mine professionally installed under MCS, foremost because we're installing under PD in a conservation area that had a lot of other contentious issues with our "green" improvements, so I want to ensure I have full documentation of MCS noise requirements. But also for the reasons you mention about documentation, support, warranty, and frankly I have a day job that pays me far better than the cost savings I'd make learning every single detail of successful ASHP installations just for a one-off install (and plumbing terrifies me for some reason).

Our order is in with mitsubishi before they closed accepting new ones, so it'll arrive when it arrives!

 

I have a mix of loxone and esphome devices for controlling the smart grid function. I'm a software developer by profession so no concerns about that aspect, plus it's of really minor importance vs the core function of the unit so can wait for months or years for me to play around with optimizing that specific aspect.

 

Other's situation maybe very different!!

[PeterW]

@joth  I think you’ve approached it from the right direction - you have the knowledge and skills to support the controls, but have drawn the line at the physical install and for the right reasons have chosen to go MCS / RHI route.
 

The point I was trying to make (and probably need more coffee) is that there are many ways to approach this and sometimes people miss some of the nuances of their choices and then realise when it is too late and end up paying out twice. 

[LA3222]

You've given me some food for thought here @PeterW It prompted me to contact a couple of companies that install ASHP and I quickly realised it will be hard to find a company willing to do it non MCS/RHI install. They all want their pound of flesh with the extra overage on cost that an MCS install brings. This brings me back full circle to doing it myself as far as practicable.

 

I'm not after complicated control systems using RPi etc, just a simple setup where if the UVC or UFH buffer call for heat, the ASHP turns on and supplies said heat.

 

I'm trying to find a plumber to do the all of the plumbing between the ASHP and UFH manifolds and the G3 cert.

 

In theory this would leave me having to connect the ASHP into the start of the circuit and the manifolds to the buffer vessel and then it would be complete from a mechanical sense.

 

Electrically, wiring the FTC would have to be done by the electrican for Part P purposes?

[PeterW]

19 minutes ago, LA3222 said:

Electrically, wiring the FTC would have to be done by the electrican for Part P purposes?

 No. The electrician would give you a fused spur on the same circuit as the heating controls - ideally the UFH, heating controls and ASHP control on a single RCBO - and from then on it is not part of the fixed wiring. 

[LA3222]

3 minutes ago, PeterW said:

 No. The electrician would give you a fused spur on the same circuit as the heating controls - ideally the UFH, heating controls and ASHP control on a single RCBO - and from then on it is not part of the fixed wiring. 

OK, I prefer that as it means I can take my time working out from the manual how to get it all set up myself rather than paying the spark to learn it.

[SteamyTea]

I found out that our 'gas man' at work has just got his MCS accreditation.

Not had a long chat with him about it yet, but did ask if he was willing to certify a self install.

Yes, with some caveats.

 

[jfb]

6 hours ago, PeterW said:

ideally the UFH, heating controls and ASHP control on a single RCBO

Sorry for the basic question. Am I correct in assuming this is distinct from the main power to the ashp ? 
And why is that better than Spurs off, say, a ring main? 

Edited November 23, 2020 by jfb

[PeterW]

6 minutes ago, jfb said:

Sorry for the basic question. Am I correct in assuming this is distinct from the main power to the ashp ? 

yep - they usually have a direct feed from the CU to a rotary 3 pole breaker outside next to the ASHP. The new (or after FTC1) indoor module no longer sends a 230v signal to the outdoor unit, it is all at 0-5v signal level so they are not required to be on the same breaker or circuit. 

[jfb]

9 hours ago, PeterW said:

The electrician would give you a fused spur on the same circuit as the heating controls - ideally the UFH, heating controls and ASHP control on a single RCBO

And what is the benefit of being on a single RCBO ? Is it just to reduce chances of it tripping unnecessarily?

[joth]

11 hours ago, jfb said:

And what is the benefit of being on a single RCBO ? Is it just to reduce chances of it tripping unnecessarily?

I read this as all on the same rcbo. Otherwise if there's any 230v control signal fed from one unit going to the neutral supply of another it would constantly trip the rcbo