STROMA certification.

[TheMitchells]

As we want to do all the electrics of our renovation ourselves, (okay - all I do is help hold things, he does all the actual work)  and is Part P, he must join a certification scheme.  He previously was with Elecsa but left while still in full time emplyment and not doing enough electrical stuff to even cover the cost of the registration.  But he's now retired and working full time on our renovation, including all the electrics.  He wonders if anyone has had any dealings, good or bad, with Stroma as they are half the price than Elecsa.

 

 

[Onoff]

One of our brethren will be along shortly 

 

But basically nothing wrong with STROMA, go for it. Quite a few se sparks are jumping away from the big boys. 

 

If still concerned check out NAPIT also if they still do their "Just 8" scheme. Allows you to sign off just 8 jobs p.a. Meant for college lecturers, retired sorts who want to keep their hand in. You still need all your docs, calibrated kit and 2391 (2394 & 5) too from memory. And you can't do more than 8 on it. Btw they DON'T advertise it, you have to phone up.

[Steptoe]

Thanks @Onoff

Yep, I'm with Stroma, was with niceic previously,

Just the same, for half the price, kinda,

Stroma are a bit tighter with if you are actually competent rather than just has your cheque cleared, 

If you have all relevant paperwork, inc 2391, or whatever its called nowadays, 17th 2382 , calibrated test kit, up to date books, lock outs, etc etc, the usual that they all want, and at least 1 major job to show, within last 6months iirc, 

2mil PL , you will also need professional indemnity , as you will be designing the install, 

Edited January 22, 2017 by Steptoe
Spelling

[Steptoe]

 

BTW

There is no such thing as being partP

 

Part P is a part of the building regulations that you must comply with.

 

If you don't meet the requirements, or have to purchase the stuff mentioned above, 

Budget on spending at least £2K,

Depending on your history and recent experience, PL insurance could be anything from £50 -£500 for £5mil

PI could be anything from £100-£2000 for £250K

Edited January 22, 2017 by Steptoe

[Onoff]

1 minute ago, Steptoe said:

 

BTW

There is no such thing as being partP

 

Part P is a part of the building regulations that you must comply with.

 

Maybe taken a Part P course like EAL etc?

[TheMitchells]

23 minutes ago, Steptoe said:

 

BTW

There is no such thing as being partP

 

Part P is a part of the building regulations that you must comply with.

 

If you don't meet the requirements, or have to purchase the stuff mentioned above, 

Budget on spending at least £2K,

Depending on your history and recent experience, PL insurance could be anything from £50 -£500 for £5mil

PI could be anything from £100-£2000 for £250K

 

Thats just my way of writing it - he has it all as well as PL insurance. 

Its been a long evening and the brain has had a melt down - apologies.

Edited January 22, 2017 by TheMitchells

[Steptoe]

7 minutes ago, TheMitchells said:

 

Thats just my way of writing it - he has it all as well as PL insurance. 

Its been a long evening and the brain has had a melt down - apologies.

OK, all good then,

Does he have professional indemnity,?

It would surprise you the amount of people don't have it.

BTW, I don't think your build insurance will cover it, I could well be wrong, but I'm fairly sure it needs to be a standalone policy.

I'd definitely recommend Stroma, very well suited to me at least, and geared up for the small one man band type firms, 

 

Give them a ring , they are very friendly, based in Yorkshire (iirc)

They'll send you out a welcome pack with everything you need to know,

I used a job that was started in 2007 and still not finished for my first inspection,

 

Edited January 22, 2017 by Steptoe

[Jeremy Harris]

Can I suggest looking very carefully at the costs before doing this.  Even at half the price, I doubt whether STROMA certification is at all worth it for a self-build.

 

Years ago (15th Ed, so that'll give you an idea!) I used to teach (part-time) electrical engineering science, at City and Guilds, ONC and HNC level.  I decided I may as well get my 15th Ed ticket (City and Guilds back then) so I could re-wire a house for someone.  I did a lot of wiring work, and have kept up to date with the regs (and also kept several rolls of the old colour code cable.....................) and I reckon I'm a competent person, even though technically I'm not because I haven't paid all the money to join a certifying body and my test gear (although perfectly safe and adequate) doesn't meet the current requirements (what's wrong with a Megger and AVO?).

 

Anyway, I thought about getting up to date as a competent person for our build, but it was too costly.  In the end I found a self-employed electrician, who was just starting out.  He had all new test gear, the Elecsa ticket, but not a great deal of experience of big wiring jobs on his own.  I asked him to quote, said I'd do all the design, spec the fittings, get all the hardware, including the trivial stuff like cable clips, Wago's etc and could he quote on the basis of doing first and second fix, with a semi-useful "labourer" on hand to help.

 

The total cost of first and second fix for our build, with the Part P paperwork registered and logged with building control, cost £1400 (he wasn't VAT registered).  Clearly we got a pretty good deal, as there's a fair bit of wiring in our house (heat pump, MVHR, borehole pump, treatment plant pump etc) and he got some confidence-building experience of a fairly big wiring job.

 

Might I suggest a similar approach if your hubby is already competent, but just isn't registered as such at the moment?  I don't think I could have bought the new test gear needed, got the paperwork and paid one of the certification bodies for the £1400 I paid our electrician, in fact I think I worked out that a competent DIY job would have been around double that cost.

 

Finally, building control are still "supposed" to be able to sign off DIY electrical work.  There's a fly in the ointment in that the certification bodies have a problem with certifying someone to sign off work done by someone else, purely on an inspection and test basis, so you may find that building control are reluctant to take this on.  Ours were quite upfront about this, saying that there was no one they knew of who could inspect and test to sign off against Part P that they knew of, so I would have to use a suitably competent electrician.

 

Edited January 22, 2017 by JSHarris

[Steptoe]

@JSHarris

Its still C&G , I did mine at 15th too, 

And, you don't have to be a member of a scheme to be competent, there are LOTS of people that are members that are most certainly NOT competent,

The schemes/scams only operate for domestic properties in England and Wales (mostly),

I'm only a member as its stupid not to be and keep turning away domestic jobs when proper work is a bit slow, plus, I started doing a lot more renewables, solar (thermal and PV), heatpumps, and biomass,  

If @TheMitchells already has most of the equipment and paperwork required I'd say it makes sense,

I did say budget at least £2K if they needed the gear,

even to get BC to sign it off requires so many site visits (1st fix, 2nd fix, and in between) and expense (round here its in excess of £400) , its usually unviable for most people, 

I'm registered to sign off 3rd party work, but I point blank refuse to do it, I think most registered installers refuse to, its a very bad practice imho, that's the problem that BC have, no one will do it for them.

 

Personally, I couldn't wire a 3bed house for £1400, I did one recently for a mate and labour only was £1800, so you got a good deal.

 

Oh, BTW, absolutely nothing wrong with an AVO, I have an AVO7 that gets used almost weekly,  I do a lot of fault finding, actually, I have 2 of them, but one needs a battery......

 

 

 

 

[Jeremy Harris]

Yes, I did get a good deal, but to be fair, the young electrician was a bit daunted by the job at first, or at least probably a bit daunted by the fact that I'd used to teach electricians (albeit, back than, all electricians that were employed by what was then the South West Electricity Board!).

 

To be fair, we romped through the job, as I did a little bit more than labouring, just enough that he could be sure that the installation, securing of cables etc, was all up to his standards, rather than mine.  I also did all the heavy stuff, like pull the 25mm 3 core SWA incomer through the duct and up to the first floor services room, and laid all the other external SWA runs, together with all the SWA cable glands (using those Gorilla nuts - at least they make that unpleasant task a bit easier).  He terminated all the cables, fitted most of the back boxes (to noggins I'd already fitted) so there was a fairly even split of work.

 

In my case, even though I'd have no problem showing  that I was a competent person, the system just wouldn't accept that I was without a lot of paperwork and additional expense.  The only place that did was Screwfix. who accepted me as an electrician for their piddling discount (but free coffee and ability to jump the queue at the desk) on production of my very ancient 15th Ed papers!

[Steptoe]

@JSHarris I don't understand which you just didn't do the 17th exam,

Its got to be one of the easiest exams ever, I know of know other test where they let you take the answer book in with you, lol,

I like SWA, its almost as nice a job satisfaction as pyro, but that's a different thing altogether.

Was your guy an electrician or an installer,? 

[Jeremy Harris]

To be honest, I could have done the 17th Ed exam, as I've got a copy of the 17th Ed and had a re-read of it before we started, but my understanding was that I'd have to join Elecsa, NAPIT or one of the others in order to be able to sign off the work; just having done the latest exam wouldn't have cut it with building control.  There was also the test gear requirement, I'd have had to hire modern gear for a day to test everything to the current requirements (like all the RCBOs, for example - I don't think my home-made box with a 13A plug and  three banana plug leads would cut it, even though it tests to the required current imbalance limits!).

 

The sticking point was really my senior BCO.  He was adamant that if I did the wiring, then I'd have to find an electrician with the right ticket to sign off third party work by test and inspection, and produce the installation cert.  He assured me there were none he knew of locally, so that sort of put the kybosh on a DIY job.

 

All told, I felt pretty good about giving the young electrician the job.  He looked like he could do with a confidence boost (he was very neat and competent, just a bit new at things), and I reckon he came away from doing our job with more confidence to take on bigger jobs in future, so that's no bad thing.

 

Finally, I HATE terminating SWA, and always have done.  I've learned all the tricks to keep the armour wires as neat as poss, got a really good pair of double-action side cutters to trim the armour, must have terminated hundreds of the damned things by now, but I still HATE it!  Even now I'll get everything set to go in the gland just right with the armour trimmed neatly, get it assembled with all the armour wires neatly under the collet ring and find I've forgotten to slip the boot on first, or something similar.  It's for that reason I tend to use NYY-J outdoors whenever I can get away with it, as it's a lot nicer to work with.

Edited January 23, 2017 by JSHarris
Can't get the @username thing to work..........

[TheMitchells]

23 hours ago, JSHarris said:

Finally, building control are still "supposed" to be able to sign off DIY electrical work.  There's a fly in the ointment in that the certification bodies have a problem with certifying someone to sign off work done by someone else, purely on an inspection and test basis, so you may find that building control are reluctant to take this on.  Ours were quite upfront about this, saying that there was no one they knew of who could inspect and test to sign off against Part P that they knew of, so I would have to use a suitably competent electrician.

 

yes, we had the same problem.  when we contacted BC to enquire, they said they dont have anyone who can certify the work so we couldnt use them.  I wont comment any more as the OH isnt here and I get into trouble if I get it wrong........

[Onoff]

The 17th for what it's worth is a piece of pi$$. I did it with a severe migraine and got 98.3% and did it in 50 minutes out of the 2 hours allowed. My mate who stayed for the whole two hours thought I'd bottled it and walked out!  (Saying that I know people who've sat it 3 or 4 times).

 

If anyone wants a 17th simulator program pm me an email address and I'll send it to you. Please note it's not to AMD3 but gives a really good grounding (you would pass with it no problem if you got on OK with the simulator). I've also got loads of 17th test paper/questions and also stuff for 2391. Yes, I know its now 2394 & 5 but the principles are the same. 

 

 

[Nickfromwales]

On 23/01/2017 at 22:37, Onoff said:

The 17th for what it's worth is a piece of pi$$. I did it with a severe migraine and got 98.3% and did it in 50 minutes out of the 2 hours allowed. My mate who stayed for the whole two hours thought I'd bottled it and walked out!  (Saying that I know people who've sat it 3 or 4 times).

 

If anyone wants a 17th simulator program pm me an email address and I'll send it to you. Please note it's not to AMD3 but gives a really good grounding (you would pass with it no problem if you got on OK with the simulator). I've also got loads of 17th test paper/questions and also stuff for 2391. Yes, I know its now 2394 & 5 but the principles are the same. 

 

 

Morning folks. 

Just thought I’d dust this off as I may as well get my electrical certification. I can wire a domestic install in my sleep so makes sense. I’m also quoting for a LOT of renewable stuff, including retrofits, so these all need an electrical connection of varying complexity / interference with existing fixed wiring.

@Onoff could you send me that link through to see how much rust needs buffing off? Is it ok to borrow certified test gear until I get to pick some up? Mates are always flogging off job lots or I can watch auctions etc. 

 

So, STROMA? Pros / cons ? I like to hear that they’re strict, as I hate schemes which do nowt except take your money. I’d rather be kept on my toes and that is also something good to demonstrate to a client. CORGI as a gas body didn’t really give a hoot until something bad happened, and I knew guys with that qualification that shouldn’t have been allowed to play with candles, let alone gas   

The question is, how far back am I going to have to wind the clock to get to a position where I can wire a domestic property start to finish, test and register. @ProDave, any nuggets of gold please. 

To register is simple, any competent installer scheme. So what do I need to be able to call myself a competent person? Quite happy for any info on ‘short-cuts’ eg 3rd party refresher courses / other as I really don’t want to have to go back to the cradle with all this. My preference would be to be able to demonstrate an installation, to say STROMA, and go from there. 

Thoughts and any advice / info would be much appreciated. 

?

Edited September 16, 2018 by Nickfromwales
Typos

[Jeremy Harris]

@Nickfromwales, you can borrow my (fairly old) multifunction tester if you want to practice and get up to speed.  It's nowhere near as easy to use as some of the newer machines from Fluke or Megger, but it will do every test needed.  I bought it second hand when I thought I was going to be able to wire our build and get BC to sign it off, but only got to use it enough to find out how it worked (all testing back when I used to do electrical work years ago was with an Avo 8 and a Megger, none of this connect a magic box up, press a button and wait until it beeps and gives you all the info!).

 

I can't see that I'll need it for a while now.  Last time I used it was to do an EICR on our old house, and next time I'll use it will be to do a periodic check on the new house, I suspect.  I could bring it with me to Bristol, if you want to borrow it.

[Onoff]

Nick, is that a 0 (zero) between first and surnames in your email address? Going to send you all I have on the 17th via Wetransfer inc the simulator. As I said this is AMD1 stuff doesn't cover renewables etc.

[ProDave]

I am not best placed to comment on the requirements for a competent persons scheme. There is no Part P this side of the border, so no requirement to be a member of such schemes, and for a new build, building control just accept an EIC that I issue, based on the model forms in the wiring regs.

 

This puts me in the rather bizarre situation that I could not just hop over the border and do a new install in Carlisle without paying lots of money to join one of these schemes.

 

Since I have a maximum of 4 1/2 years to go until I plan to retire, I am just keeping my head down and carrying on as I am and hope nothing changes in that time to force scheme membership up here.

[Nickfromwales]

5 minutes ago, Onoff said:

Nick, is that a 0 (zero) between first and surnames in your email address? Going to send you all I have on the 17th via Wetransfer inc the simulator. As I said this is AMD1 stuff doesn't cover renewables etc.

Yup, numerical zero. Cheers.

Looking forward to using the stimulator  

[Onoff]

Nick, took a chance on the email and just sent. Sorry, might be some repeats in there on the test papers.

 

I'd start with the 17th Simulator which is an .exe file so assume you'll need a Windoze pc?  This just to get a feel where you are. 

[Nickfromwales]

Just now, Onoff said:

Nick, took a chance on the email and just sent. Sorry, might be some repeats in there on the test papers.

 

I'd start with the 17th Simulator which is an .exe file so assume you'll need a Windoze pc?  This just to get a feel where you are. 

Bought a Windows lappy so I'll open it on that, cheers. 

[Nickfromwales]

7 minutes ago, ProDave said:

I am not best placed to comment on the requirements for a competent persons scheme. There is no Part P this side of the border, so no requirement to be a member of such schemes, and for a new build, building control just accept an EIC that I issue, based on the model forms in the wiring regs.

 

This puts me in the rather bizarre situation that I could not just hop over the border and do a new install in Carlisle without paying lots of money to join one of these schemes.

 

Since I have a maximum of 4 1/2 years to go until I plan to retire, I am just keeping my head down and carrying on as I am and hope nothing changes in that time to force scheme membership up here.

I bet you've stopped crossing on the stairs and all sorts to avoid that  

I just want to know basically if I can fast track by demonstrating jobs done, a bit like the GSR said I could do if I wanted to go for my gas, under 'employ' ( eg supervision ) of a GSR fitter of course, and how long before they deem me 'competent'.

Can I stump up their membership fee and get going now eg wire a job and have them come and inspect etc? Do I need to pass / obtain my 17th Ed first? Not sure where the horse and the cart sit TBH, as with the gas you have to demonstrate gas work you've done prior to getting GSR'd  

[Onoff]

Not to piss on your parade this early but I think STROMA require the 2391 (now 2394 & 5) to do EICRs. Could be wrong...

 

[Nickfromwales]

22 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

@Nickfromwales, you can borrow my (fairly old) multifunction tester if you want to practice and get up to speed.  It's nowhere near as easy to use as some of the newer machines from Fluke or Megger, but it will do every test needed.  I bought it second hand when I thought I was going to be able to wire our build and get BC to sign it off, but only got to use it enough to find out how it worked (all testing back when I used to do electrical work years ago was with an Avo 8 and a Megger, none of this connect a magic box up, press a button and wait until it beeps and gives you all the info!).

 

I can't see that I'll need it for a while now.  Last time I used it was to do an EICR on our old house, and next time I'll use it will be to do a periodic check on the new house, I suspect.  I could bring it with me to Bristol, if you want to borrow it.

Cheers Jeremy. 

I'll make a call to STROMA tomorrow and see if / how I can fast-track with them. I''l update here when I've spoken to them.

[Nickfromwales]

3 minutes ago, Onoff said:

Not to piss on your parade this early but I think STROMA require the 2391 (now 2394 & 5) to do EICRs. Could be wrong...

 

I can live with commissioning being to the right for the immediate, its just being able to 1st fix / 2nd fix which would be of immediate benefit. It is what it is, so I'll likely talk to NAPITT and STROMA, as I hear that the NICEIC are a bit OTT on costs etc for the same result.