MJNewton Posted August 31, 2020 Share Posted August 31, 2020 (edited) We've opted for a Franke Ariane ARX160 1.5 bowl undermount sink which is to be topped with a 30mm quartz worktop... It'll be sitting inside a 600mm wide unit (the minimum specified by Franke): The issue I would welcome some help with is that the sink is also 600mm wide and it sits proud of the side panels (and also fouls the front bar but that's a straightforward fix to allow it so come forward a bit) and thus needs lowering to allow the quartz worktop to sit flush across it and neighbouring units: It sits around 2-3mm high, and the sink appears to be a dual-skinned and there's some variability in overall thickness: Any suggestion how best to deal with this? I was thinking of just rebating the top of the panels to a sufficient depth, whether with a router or (preferably due to lack of routing experience) my multitool with some timber clamped either side to guide the blade? On a related subject, I wasn't sure how much support a sink actually requires - I think it comes with only four clips to mount it (to a timber worktop at least) so perhaps doesn't need much, and I'm sure I've heard of them being siliconed into place directly to the underside of stone worktops with nothing beneath them. That aside, I did think I might fit a baton across the cupboard immediately under the large sink bowl thus adding a bit of support and stability to replace that which I might compromise from hacking the unit down. To the left if this unit will be an integrated dishwasher and so it's not like it can depend on a neighbouring cupboard for strength. Anyone been here before? Edited August 31, 2020 by MJNewton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gav_P Posted August 31, 2020 Share Posted August 31, 2020 (edited) I’ve router the unit down by a couple of mm so the sink is flush with the top of the unit (don’t have to be too careful as you can secure it will silicon if you want. Then I siliconed the sink to the bottom of the work top. (I mean routered where the sink is only... not the whole unit) Edited August 31, 2020 by Gav_P 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Jimbo Posted August 31, 2020 Share Posted August 31, 2020 Been there a thousand times. Used to own a kitchen company..... First you need to cut out most of the front bar . If you have got 20mm doors ? you will want a 30mm overhang on the worktop.You need the drop of the bowl to be between 70 and 100 mm from the front of the worktop. Anymore, and you will be reaching, and bending into the sink. Cut away the front bar to 30mm, then use a router to rebate the sides, and what remains of the front bar. Drop the sink in, on silicon, and aim to get it flush with the top of the cab. The sink will be fully supported by the sides of the cab, so no bar underneath required. IMO, get the stone top overhanging the drop of the bowl by 5mm. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gav_P Posted August 31, 2020 Share Posted August 31, 2020 1 minute ago, Big Jimbo said: Been there a thousand times. Used to own a kitchen company..... First you need to cut out most of the front bar . If you have got 20mm doors ? you will want a 30mm overhang on the worktop.You need the drop of the bowl to be between 70 and 100 mm from the front of the worktop. Anymore, and you will be reaching, and bending into the sink. Cut away the front bar to 30mm, then use a router to rebate the sides, and what remains of the front bar. Drop the sink in, on silicon, and aim to get it flush with the top of the cab. The sink will be fully supported by the sides of the cab, so no bar underneath required. IMO, get the stone top overhanging the drop of the bowl by 5mm. This ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Jimbo Posted August 31, 2020 Share Posted August 31, 2020 P.S. get the back of that sink unit out or you are never gonna get the tap connected. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted August 31, 2020 Share Posted August 31, 2020 Speak to your worktop supplier before you do anything. Some are happy to have the sink mounted to the unit and then sit the worktop over it. Ours were not. Ours the sink is hung from the worktop without getting any support from the unit, which of course means it is in a sink unit large enough to do that. Your sink unit is not. +1 to cut the back out of the sink unit for access to the taps, this is what i did: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Jimbo Posted August 31, 2020 Share Posted August 31, 2020 1 minute ago, ProDave said: Speak to your worktop supplier before you do anything. Some are happy to have the sink mounted to the unit and then sit the worktop over it. Ours were not. Ours the sink is hung from the worktop without getting any support from the unit, which of course means it is in a sink unit large enough to do that. Your sink unit is not. +1 to cut the back out of the sink unit for access to the taps, this is what i did: Can i ask why there were not happy. The only sinks i have ever seen fall off are the ones held up under stone on those poxy little clips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJNewton Posted August 31, 2020 Author Share Posted August 31, 2020 All very reassuring - thanks. I half expected the responses to be along the lines 'Ah... you shouldn't have gone for a sink like that. That's made for German units which are different to UK spec' 8 minutes ago, Big Jimbo said: Been there a thousand times. Used to own a kitchen company..... First you need to cut out most of the front bar . If you have got 20mm doors ? you will want a 30mm overhang on the worktop. Yes, 20mm doors and we were wondering about overhang so that helps on that front too. Presumably a '30mm overhang' means 10mm beyond the door front? Quote You need the drop of the bowl to be between 70 and 100 mm from the front of the worktop. Anymore, and you will be reaching, and bending into the sink. Again, another unanswered question answered! Will measure up where I thought it was going to go (in the middle?) and see where that puts us. Quote Cut away the front bar to 30mm, then use a router to rebate the sides, and what remains of the front bar. Drop the sink in, on silicon, and aim to get it flush with the top of the cab. The sink will be fully supported by the sides of the cab, so no bar underneath required. Okay, thanks, I can do all that. So you are saying I should secure the sink in place before the worktop fitters come? Quote IMO, get the stone top overhanging the drop of the bowl by 5mm. That's an interesting one... I think the supplied template actually has the worktop cut back from the bowl edge i.e. with some of the steel edge tops showing. I went to look for an image to clarify and found two different ways (yet the same onions in both?!): So you prefer some overhang (second image)? I think maybe I do but I wonder if the worktop fitters will only work to a manufacturer-defined template... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJNewton Posted August 31, 2020 Author Share Posted August 31, 2020 17 minutes ago, Big Jimbo said: P.S. get the back of that sink unit out or you are never gonna get the tap connected. Yes, that's coming right out otherwise it would've undermined the space saver McAlpine trap kit I've bought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted August 31, 2020 Share Posted August 31, 2020 7 minutes ago, Big Jimbo said: Can i ask why there were not happy. The only sinks i have ever seen fall off are the ones held up under stone on those poxy little clips. I guess (they did not give a reason) if the sink was in place and fixed first, then getting the hole in exactly the right place is one more thing to get exactly right. Basically they said they would not do it that way, and as they were the only stone supplier and fitter in town, I could not just go somewhere else who would fit it a different way. They threw away the silly clips supplied with the sink, and epoxied on some different fittings that they supplied. If your stone supplier is happy then I see nothing wrong with fitting it as you suggest, I am just saying check with your stone supplier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Jimbo Posted August 31, 2020 Share Posted August 31, 2020 Second image. The first one will trap water on the visible stainless steel edge, and be a total pain to keep clean. The worktop fitters should do you a small overhang if thats what you want. Most stone firms have the sinks cut out by CNC machines, so if the sink is in the computer, it is simple template size - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJNewton Posted August 31, 2020 Author Share Posted August 31, 2020 10 minutes ago, ProDave said: Speak to your worktop supplier before you do anything. Sounds sensible. If they're going to have an issue either way I may as well find that out now rather than when they turn up! (And who knows, maybe they'll say 'Don't you worry about that - all part of the service Sir'...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Jimbo Posted August 31, 2020 Share Posted August 31, 2020 1 minute ago, ProDave said: I guess (they did not give a reason) if the sink was in place and fixed first, then getting the hole in exactly the right place is one more thing to get exactly right. Basically they said they would not do it that way, and as they were the only stone supplier and fitter in town, I could not just go somewhere else who would fit it a different way. They threw away the silly clips supplied with the sink, and epoxied on some different fittings that they supplied. Thats fair enough. The best one i saw was Peter Stringfellow's sink falling through his unit while he was being filmed for Come dine for me. Lot of weight in a sink when filled with water. In 20 years the clips always went in the bin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJNewton Posted August 31, 2020 Author Share Posted August 31, 2020 2 minutes ago, Big Jimbo said: Second image. The first one will trap water on the visible stainless steel edge, and be a total pain to keep clean. The worktop fitters should do you a small overhang if thats what you want. Most stone firms have the sinks cut out by CNC machines, so if the sink is in the computer, it is simple template size - Yes, trapped water could be bad - particularly as we're in a hard water area. I'll check re templating but I suspect they may well be using machines as they have asked for the make/model of the sink and hob before they visit which I'm assuming means they want to check they've got the figures already. I suppose I can always ask for an overhang even if the template doesn't have one as they can just add 10mm-or-whatever to all the dimensions. I assume they'd cut the tap hole too? They haven't asked about the model (and size), but perhaps there's a standard? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted August 31, 2020 Share Posted August 31, 2020 Also, when the stone supplier came to template for the stone, they took the sink away with them to size up for the hole. Yes they cut the tap hole, and don't forget draining board grooves. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Jimbo Posted August 31, 2020 Share Posted August 31, 2020 Standard for a tap is 35mm. Sounds like a decent company to be asking you for model numbers, so they can make sure they have them in the CNC machine. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Jimbo Posted August 31, 2020 Share Posted August 31, 2020 2 minutes ago, ProDave said: Also, when the stone supplier came to template for the stone, they took the sink away with them to size up for the hole. Yes they cut the tap hole, and don't forget draining board grooves. Grooves on Right or left though ProDave ? I could never decide on my own kitchens, so always ended up with both bloody sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted August 31, 2020 Share Posted August 31, 2020 Just now, Big Jimbo said: Grooves on Right or left though ProDave ? I could never decide on my own kitchens, so always ended up with both bloody sides. Grooves draining into the half bowl, whichever side that is on. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJNewton Posted August 31, 2020 Author Share Posted August 31, 2020 5 minutes ago, Big Jimbo said: Standard for a tap is 35mm. Sounds like a decent company to be asking you for model numbers, so they can make sure they have them in the CNC machine. It's Natural Stone Surfaces (supplier to DIY Kitchens). They have seemed a good company so far... I contacted them for a quote and attached my kitchen plan for context. They spotted the DIY Kitchens URL and advised I'd be best going via DIYK as they pass on the bulk discount that they give to them. (I'm assuming that was good of them - if there could be an ulterior motive don't tell me now!) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyshouse Posted August 31, 2020 Share Posted August 31, 2020 I hate undercount, yuk gets under the worktop sing junction, Unhygienic, went for inset Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJNewton Posted August 31, 2020 Author Share Posted August 31, 2020 It's probably a fair point but with us going open plan we've tried to make the kitchen less 'kitcheny', if you know what I mean, and we figured one one way of helping with that was to hide the sink a bit. As for stuff getting trapped, well - with Jim's overhang suggestion it'll be out of sight so out of mind! ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeGrahamT21 Posted September 1, 2020 Share Posted September 1, 2020 Just remember to clean it regularly and this won't be an issue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJNewton Posted September 1, 2020 Author Share Posted September 1, 2020 Looking closer at the sink there is a bevelled edge which I am wondering might not lend itself well to having the worktop hanging over it due to the risk of it being a dirt trap? Perhaps it could be filled with silicone, although it'd have to be out of a tube or via another application method as a conventional gun and tube wouldn't fit inside the sink to get the right angle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted September 1, 2020 Share Posted September 1, 2020 The joint between our sink and the worktop is siliconed. They applied the silicon to the top of the sink before offering it up to the worktop. In your case the sink will be there first on the unit. Stand the worktop up at the back, apply silicon the the sing edge, lower worktop onto it. Are you fitting it or is the worktop supplier? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJNewton Posted September 1, 2020 Author Share Posted September 1, 2020 1 hour ago, ProDave said: The joint between our sink and the worktop is siliconed. They applied the silicon to the top of the sink before offering it up to the worktop. It was more the bevelled edge bit that I was thinking about, but I am sure that could be filled afterwards with a tube of silicone. Quote In your case the sink will be there first on the unit. Stand the worktop up at the back, apply silicon the the sing edge, lower worktop onto it. Are you fitting it or is the worktop supplier? The worktop supplier is fitting the worktop, but as you suggested earlier I'll check regarding their requirements/preference for how much flexibility they have regarding the sink. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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