Removing the Architect from project managing my build and project managing it myself

[David_haswell]

I plan to renovate a relatively small three bedroom terraced house. The renovation consists of a 19.25 m2 two story infill yard extension and a back single story 9.78 m2 extension which will have wall to wall sliding doors and a glazed roof. I will be creating a separate downstairs toilet/shower room & utility room within the existing non extended house. For the garden I will be creating a reclaimed brick boundary wall, patio area with a wooden pergola and raised planters. Please see the below before and after plans to get a better idea of what I hope to achieve.

 

 

I have worked with an architect who has gained building control approval and have agreed via email for the architect to project manage the build. The architect is charging 10% of the final construction cost for project management plus 2% VAT on top. The architect has only recently become VAT registered so I will be paying VAT for the project management having not expected to when I initially signed up with the architect. I have paid the architect £6,875 to date, this amount excludes VAT as no VAT was applicable at the time of the invoices. There is £375 outstanding on the tender process as I have put a hold to it while I wait for the covid situation to become clear. Please see the image below for the break down of costs so far. I seem to have been invoiced for 1/3rd the projected cost of the project management fee.

I have a feeling from speaking with the architect that my final build cost will be £140,000.

 

Since my pause on the project I have had time to reflect and I am wondering if I would be better project managing the build myself to save on the remaining 12% fee the architect would be charging me. I have no building experience but have a friend who has some experience when it comes to building work. I have also decided to make use of the Empty building reduced rate VAT scheme. This would save me 15% in VAT if I did the build through a single contractor. The building has not been lived in for a year so I would only have to wait one more year to start the build.

 

I have Aspergers so I am wondering would I be suited to project management. My ability to be detailed and analytic would be my strengths but my weaknesses would be the social aspect of interacting with the various trades in person.

 

From my rough calculations based on a final build cost of £140k including fittings/garden/kitchen my architect would be getting a cut of £110k from that total. This would amount to £13.2k minus the £2,125 I have already paid would give a potential total saving of £11,075 if I project managed the build myself.

 

I have a few worries on ditching the architect.

 

1. Can the architect sue me for the remainder of the project management fee? as I agreed via email for them to carry out the project management.

2. Do I own the building control plans?

 

I am also wondering should I pay the remaining £375 of the final invoice to get the architect to provide quotes from their list of contractors. Once I receive the quotes from them I could then inform the architect I no longer need them to project manage the build. I do worry about kickbacks the architect would be getting from their chosen list of contractors but I believe this would break the Architects code of conduct.

 

Many thanks

 

 

[nod]

My advice would be to part company with the Architect 

Unless the  home in question is of grand design preparations You don’t need the Architect to have any further involvement 

 

 

[David_haswell]

12 minutes ago, nod said:

My advice would be to part company with the Architect 

Unless the  home in question is of grand design preparations You don’t need the Architect to have any further involvement 

 

 

 

Should I at least get the three quotes from their chosen contractors?

 

Also if I part company with the architect can they sue me for not completing the contract? I did not sign any pieces of paper but emails are still legally binding contracts and I had agreed they would project manage the build.

Edited August 5, 2020 by David_haswell

[Thedreamer]

5 minutes ago, nod said:

My advice would be to part company with the Architect 

Unless the  home in question is of grand design preparations You don’t need the Architect to have any further involvement 

 

 

 

Agree with this. I would say that the build costs are higher than expect so going to need to take on the project manager yourself to allow it to go ahead.

 

14 minutes ago, David_haswell said:

 

 

I have Aspergers so I am wondering would I be suited to project management. My ability to be detailed and analytic would be my strengths but my weaknesses would be the social aspect of interacting with the various trades in person.

 

 

 

I think this will depend on your builder. We worked on a subcontractor basis but had a single joiner who did the bulk of the work. 

 

I have a bit of an eye for spotting details and he was great at keeping me from sweating over nothing.

 

Good regular communication is important to ensure everybody knows what the expectations are. I was lucky in the fact that I lived on site, would pop down in the morning and take a note pad to record any materials needed or whether a decision was required.  

 

I learned pretty quickly that you will have problems along the way, sometimes you have to park them as you have other areas that require your attention to keep the whole thing moving along.

 

[nod]

We parted company with our Architect just before breaking ground 

He was fine 

We will use him on the next one 

Same arrangement 

[the_r_sole]

That's quite a confusing fee note there imo! They say it's 10% for "Part C" then all of the services are described with numbers? ?

 

If you don't trust the architect to properly run the tender then there's a bigger issue here, it seems to be very far down the line to still think they are going to suggest a contractor just to get a kickback?!

 

What kind of project management is he proposing to do? When we are involved in site works we certainly aren't doing day to day project management for the contractor, really a main contractor would be project managing it, the only time you'd really need an independent PM would be if you were only employing subcontractors all on different contracts which it doesn't sound like you are thinking of?

 

(in my experience you really need a balance of good social skills and the eye for detail to project manage a build, just an eye for detail and with no middle man, it has the potential for fall outs!)

 

 

[Mr Punter]

You may do better getting a fixed price from a reputable builder, but I would want all the construction information from the architect.  That way he is responsible should the plumber, sparky or whatever have any queries.

 

I have never found architects that useful after the design and tender stage.  They seem to just turn up to site in their collarless shirts and most people ignore them.  I am sure there are exceptions though.

 

I think Aspergers ranks very low on most sites as any impediment, so no issues on that front but I welcome you being so candid.

[David_haswell]

58 minutes ago, the_r_sole said:

What kind of project management is he proposing to do? When we are involved in site works we certainly aren't doing day to day project management for the contractor, really a main contractor would be project managing it, the only time you'd really need an independent PM would be if you were only employing subcontractors all on different contracts which it doesn't sound like you are thinking of?

 

From speaking to someone who used the architect to project manage their build they appear on site once or twice a week to make sure the builder is following the architect's plans. To me that does not seem worth the 12% fee.

 

BTW it was me who added the numbers. I guess the annoying thing is I have wasted some money on part paying for the project management stage. I can see why they made the payment this way so if you do pull out your penalised.

[the_r_sole]

9 hours ago, David_haswell said:

 

From speaking to someone who used the architect to project manage their build they appear on site once or twice a week to make sure the builder is following the architect's plans. To me that does not seem worth the 12% fee.

 

BTW it was me who added the numbers. I guess the annoying thing is I have wasted some money on part paying for the project management stage. I can see why they made the payment this way so if you do pull out your penalised.

 

Interesting - weekly meetings are usually more than adequate for that kind of duty - checking the builder is following the plans is some way off Project Management so i guess it depends how he is selling that service... You would expect around 10-12% of construction costs for the entire job from sketch plans to building regs plans, tender and site works - 12% of construction costs for on site seems high but looks like he's trying to justify it  with the amount of site attendance?

If you haven't tendered the work yet but have the documents, you can either tender it yourself or get the architect to tender it to who you want - we regualarly have clients who ask us to send the tender to their preferred contractor and we always try to get our clients to meet the contractors (and previous clients of them) before they appoint them to make sure they are happy with them,  if you suspect the architect is only tendering to friends to get a kickback there's a big trust issue there

[David_haswell]

20 minutes ago, the_r_sole said:

 

Interesting - weekly meetings are usually more than adequate for that kind of duty - checking the builder is following the plans is some way off Project Management so i guess it depends how he is selling that service... You would expect around 10-12% of construction costs for the entire job from sketch plans to building regs plans, tender and site works - 12% of construction costs for on site seems high but looks like he's trying to justify it  with the amount of site attendance?

If you haven't tendered the work yet but have the documents, you can either tender it yourself or get the architect to tender it to who you want - we regualarly have clients who ask us to send the tender to their preferred contractor and we always try to get our clients to meet the contractors (and previous clients of them) before they appoint them to make sure they are happy with them,  if you suspect the architect is only tendering to friends to get a kickback there's a big trust issue there

 

I guess I could tender the project myself as I have everything I need.

 

This is the list of documents I have.

 

Detailed building control drawings

Electrical layout including all plugs and lighting

Very detailed kitchen design that I did myself

Very detailed garden design that I did myself

Structural engineers drawings for landscaping and house

40 page schedule of works drawn up by the architect explaining exactly what needs done and when

Detailed drawings of all interior carpentry

Detailed drawings of both bathroom layouts

 

I am unsure on kickbacks but I have heard it can happen and not something I would want to risk.

 

I do believe I have overdeveloped the house though and after its complete if I were to sell would probably lose £50k - £70k. The best house currently on the street is worth around £300k.

 

With my house I would be adding the extra 9.78m2 ground floor extension enabling me to add a utility room and have a much bigger kitchen and a second shower compared to the £300k house. No idea if that adds much more value on to £300k though.

Edited August 6, 2020 by David_haswell

[epsilonGreedy]

13 hours ago, David_haswell said:

I have a few worries on ditching the architect.

 

1. Can the architect sue me for the remainder of the project management fee? as I agreed via email for them to carry out the project management.

2. Do I own the building control plans?

 

 

You have clearly entered into a contract when emailing your acceptance of his offer to project manage. His fee structure is clear and the overall charge is within industry norms.

 

The legal question is what early termination clause can be invoked. Is this mentioned in any correspondence with the architect or has the architect indicated he is adopting a contract structure as outlined by a professional governing body? Failing that I think established industry practice defines early termination options, my hunch is that architects half expect to be ditched at some stage and take it on the chin. 

[joth]

13 hours ago, David_haswell said:

I have paid the architect £6,875 to date,

 

13 hours ago, David_haswell said:

From my rough calculations based on a final build cost of £140k including fittings/garden/kitchen my architect would be getting a cut of £110k from that total. This would amount to £13.2k minus the £2,125 I have already paid would give a potential total saving of £11,075 if I project managed the build myself.

 

 

I can't reconcile this two statements - have you already paid £6,875 or £2,125?

 

From the illustration their 10% charge is the cap for all fees until completion, not the cost of the onsite stage only (but it's not super clear so that warrants clear confirmation).

 

 

Also you are complicating the equation  by mixing VAT up in it, better to calculate everything ex VAT and then have a separate exercise to figure the VAT hit.

e.g. if the Architect is charging 10% of contract (excluding kitchen) for full service, this is £110k * 10% = £11,000. Of that, if you have already paid £6,875 the remaining architect fee (and thus the potential savings by firing them now)  is (11,000-6,875=) £4,125+VAT

 

whether those savings are worth it or not is up to you.

 

Why not ask them "If  the build comes in at £140k, how much will your remaining fees be?"

 

Also as others mention, get clarification if this really is a proposal for Project management, or Contract management. There's quite a difference.

 

[the_r_sole]

22 minutes ago, joth said:

 

From the illustration their 10% charge is the cap for all fees until completion, not the cost of the onsite stage only (but it's not super clear so that warrants clear confirmation).

 

 

That's what I thought - it's the reference to Part C that makes it impossible to tell if that's the case

[David_haswell]

Please see the text below for more details on the fees

 

 

So from reading that my understanding is the architect would be providing the role of principle designer. I did not know about the CDM 2016 regulations. The architect makes it sounds like I have to use them by law to take care of health and safety responsibilities. I assume the architect would be leaving the project management side of things to the principle contractor.

 

37 minutes ago, joth said:

Also you are complicating the equation  by mixing VAT up in it, better to calculate everything ex VAT and then have a separate exercise to figure the VAT hit.

e.g. if the Architect is charging 10% of contract (excluding kitchen) for full service, this is £110k * 10% = £11,000. Of that, if you have already paid £6,875 the remaining architect fee (and thus the potential savings by firing them now)  is (11,000-6,875=) £4,125+VAT

 

If you read the extra proposed services attached text I have attached it appears that the 10% of construction cost is in Part C which is separate from Parts A & B. So of the £6,875 I have paid the architect £4,750 of this is not included in the 10% fee. In my sums earlier I had included the kitchen in my 10% calculation, but now understand I can exclude the kitchen as the architect had minimal impact on its design.

 

So If we take 10% of a final construction cost of £100k we get £10k excluding VAT. If we then take the £2125 I have already paid towards Part C that means I would have to pay the architect an extra £9,450 including VAT to complete part C.

 

£9,450 is still one hell of a saving in my opinion.

Edited August 6, 2020 by David_haswell

[David_haswell]

49 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said:

 

You have clearly entered into a contract when emailing your acceptance of his offer to project manage. His fee structure is clear and the overall charge is within industry norms.

 

The legal question is what early termination clause can be invoked. Is this mentioned in any correspondence with the architect or has the architect indicated he is adopting a contract structure as outlined by a professional governing body? Failing that I think established industry practice defines early termination options, my hunch is that architects half expect to be ditched at some stage and take it on the chin. 

 

The architect is adopting the RIBA plan of Work contract structure.

 

https://www.architecture.com/knowledge-and-resources/resources-landing-page/riba-plan-of-work

 

I would need to search that for how early termination of contract is handled.

[the_r_sole]

7 minutes ago, David_haswell said:

 

The architect is adopting the RIBA plan of Work contract structure.

 

https://www.architecture.com/knowledge-and-resources/resources-landing-page/riba-plan-of-work

 

I would need to search that for how early termination of contract is handled.

 

The plan of work has nothing at all to do with the appointment of the architect.

In their appointment document they should have detailed how to deal with termination and disputes, if they haven't then it would be against the code of conduct....

[David_haswell]

15 minutes ago, the_r_sole said:

 

The plan of work has nothing at all to do with the appointment of the architect.

In their appointment document they should have detailed how to deal with termination and disputes, if they haven't then it would be against the code of conduct....

 

I have not received an appointment document. At least not via email. I could have been posted one at the beginning but I can't remember now it was that long ago. Surely the fact I have no email copy of it and all of our communication has been via email gives me some hope of exiting early with no extra fees to pay.

Edited August 6, 2020 by David_haswell

[the_r_sole]

13 minutes ago, David_haswell said:

 

I have not received an appointment document. At least not via email. I could have been posted one at the beginning but I can't remember now it was that long ago. Surely the fact I have no email copy of it and all of our communication has been via email gives me some hope of exiting early with no extra fees to pay.

 

you've posted images which look like they are from his service proposal which could be an appointment document (we ask for a signed copy of ours to be sent back) but it should either have terms and conditions or say it's in accordance with the standard form of appointment...

[David_haswell]

1 hour ago, the_r_sole said:

 

you've posted images which look like they are from his service proposal which could be an appointment document (we ask for a signed copy of ours to be sent back) but it should either have terms and conditions or say it's in accordance with the standard form of appointment...

 

The email was titled Brief summary and proposed services, there were no terms and conditions attached. There was no mention of standard form of appointment in the email.

 

My follow up email began with, "I would gladly use your services, Parts A,B & C."

 

Does this mean I am in the clear to cut ties with the architect without fear of being sued for the remainder of the 10% @ £75k.

 

 

[Mr Punter]

That is a lot of work for a place worth £300k.  Do you know how much it will cost?

[David_haswell]

31 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

That is a lot of work for a place worth £300k.  Do you know how much it will cost?

 

I have a feeling it will cost £150k all in. The trouble is the back garden is going to be surrounded by a reclaimed brick wall. There will be a patio and also a number of planters. That hardscaping alone I can imagine costing £30k and that is just for the back garden. You then have the probably £7k aluminium patio sliding doors, the roof light will be a few k as well. Underfloor heating going into the living/kitchen/dinning area. The heating will have TRVs in the utility room meaning double the pipework for all of the the radiators. The kitchen is being custom made and probably with a £20k price tag.

 

I have yet to put it out to tender as I am scared at what prices I will receive back. I have the budget to pay for what ever it costs but I probably need to re access my life right now before proceeding. For example I am single and this house would be far too large for myself. I probably need to spend a year looking for a partner and see what they would advise. Though with Aspergers it is very difficult to find a girlfriend. Another option is to remain single and let out a bedroom as an airbnb. The renovated property would make the perfect airbnb really. I think the biggest difficulty would be keeping the place clean. I have very poor executive functioning skills.

Edited August 6, 2020 by David_haswell

[Mr Punter]

You have not yet committed to this.  Why not consider just getting it decorated with some new furniture and flooring?  Get a cleaner in once a week if you don't fancy doing it yourself.  There is nothing to stop you renting out a room right now.  It would be a pain if you meet someone and they want to live elsewhere and you have chucked all that money into this project.

 

On the other hand, a prospective partner may love the place and then maybe would be the time to do the work - perhaps with their input and ideas.

[David_haswell]

15 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

You have not yet committed to this.  Why not consider just getting it decorated with some new furniture and flooring?  Get a cleaner in once a week if you don't fancy doing it yourself.  There is nothing to stop you renting out a room right now.  It would be a pain if you meet someone and they want to live elsewhere and you have chucked all that money into this project.

 

On the other hand, a prospective partner may love the place and then maybe would be the time to do the work - perhaps with their input and ideas.

 

That is exactly my thinking.

 

I have had very direct interest from two girls I met at a autism meetup group. One is 9 years older than myself. The other is 4 years younger. The older woman I do not find attractive unless she applies her makeup well. The younger girl is attractive but is small and very overweight and I feel I would want her to lose the weight which is unfair on her. I am not one to judge but I have considered asking the older woman on a date. She already owns her own house, the younger girl rents. Neither of them are on the spectrum themselves.

 

I guess I am a good looking fellow but find it very difficult to know when a girl is interested in me unless it is made VERY obvious over a long period of time. The two girls I met on a once in a month group basis so I guess I have good odds of attracting a partner if I get out and socialise. I have not properly socialised in over a decade due to work commitments which are ending soon. I guess I could frame my conversations with women with the opportunity to develop a lovely house to live in together? The issue is I do not ever want children and I could be considered emotionally unstable and deeply paranoid which are not attractive traits unless I can find someone who shares those same traits.

Edited August 6, 2020 by David_haswell

[Nickfromwales]

8 hours ago, David_haswell said:

unless I can find someone who shares those same traits.

And the only way to find out, is to go and ask  Some people will appreciate a binary dialogue, others will run a mile ( ask me how I know ) . Persistence will pay dividends but never struggle to engage, as that should be organic and mutually enjoyable

Do not expect anyone to change for you as that is just never going to happen, so make your decision and go ask for a date. If you don't ask, you don't get!

[Pm1987]

I changed architect during the design stage due to the costs increasing and had no issues. It was all very amicable and no bad feelings from us or them. They fully understood we had a very tight budget and a 5k saving on architect fees meant more money to play with. We are still in contact with them and they happily answer any questions we have when we cant contact our new architect.