private water supply

[scottishjohn]

ok after measuring the min flow rate for last month before the rains 

ti was minimum of 1000lt per day 

now we have had some rain is 4 or 5 times that so now considering intercepting it with a collection tank  -which has my take off to my storage tank set so to not get any crap from stream 

this goes to a tank ,which will be buried -capacity -thinking of around  5000 lt ?

 

50mm pipe in with 50mm out at top --so in normal condtions the water in there will be changed more  than once a day 

 ok in  drought conditions -it will take a few days to change  it

by having another outlet at other side of tank at top -so there will always be flow through   -no stagnation -when the excess water will be returned to  stream 

there will also be atke off closer to the top for garden water supply

 

take off for house supply to be about 10" from bottom  , but off it so any sediment can be removed once a year through inspection hatch

then this outlet to house filters and ultraviolet  and auto pump to raise pressure ot 3bar ?-connected to an accumulator

although i call it a stream its actually a spring in field up the hill which then goes into a stone culvert

 farmer -whose family have been there for 80years ,says it never drys up

 

what have I missed 

 

 I was going to pump up the hill --but thats 350ft and 400yds ,so needed 220psi pumpstation at bottom of hill- and running big cable down to it as well as pipe up and trying to insulate it ,as depth of 750mm to bury it will be hard in some places-so now ithink private is the way to go

any advice is very welcome

Edited July 6, 2020 by scottishjohn

[joe90]

Have you had the water tested?, our water here has iron and a few other nasties so had a special filter system till we demolished it and went with mains as it was available in the road. I would love spring water as a supply. Previous owner (wifes father) used to drink the water with no filtering and lived to a ripe old age.

[ProDave]

You would need to have the water tested.  You should be able to collect a sample as it is without any expense. The results of the test will tell you what treatment is necessary.  

 

What does a sample look like if collected and allowed to settle? is it clear or coloured? is there any sediment or smell?

 

I come across lots of private water schemes here, from the dark brown peaty ones, the dubious ones from surface streams with sheep grazing the land, to the downright hard borehole water we get here.  One local farm pumps water a long way up a hill with a hydraulic ram, so no power other than the flow of the water.  It arrives as a trickle into an underground holding tank from where it is pumped into an accumulator.  He seems to be drinking that with no treatment at all. As it only arrives as a trickle, there can't be much overflow or throughput.

 

The only issue with water not originating on your land, is what might happen in the future.  the farm mentioned above only installed the hydraulic ram pump system a few years ago.  He used to get water from a spring up the hill. but that spring "went bad" when the forrest above was clear felled.

[PeterW]

I’d be storing a minimum of 10,000 litres and taking it off with a floating pickup - they sit about 8-10” down and you get none of the top surface or the silt. 
 

You will need filtration - @jamieled has just done his and it looks really tidy. Add a 500 litre accumulator after this and you’ll have plenty of water. 
 

[joe90]

Will you retain ownership of the land above you where the spring is?.

[Cpd]

I installed two tank, the first 3000 litre tank is for back up and acts as an initial sediment catcher, the second is 5000 litres. 

I have installed both with Purge taps at the bottom so that I can empty either one independently.

i have a tap on the outlet pipe so during maintenance I can shut this to stop any crud from going into the main pipe line. 
my water comes from the spring where I have some basic wire filters into the tanks and then the overflow runs into a small 500 litre tank that I have as an Independent water pipe installed for the garden and for the kids to play with, that way if they forget to switch of the hose or I forget to switch of the garden watering system I will not drain the main tanks.

having an independent line or a pre filter take off like this is a good idea as when your doing anything that requires a lot of water you don’t have to run it all through the filters and potentially shorten there life, obviously if you have super clean water this would not be a problem. 
when you come to purify the system the VERY BEST and easiest Way is to use MILTON disinfectant fluid, trust me on this one...... 

I mix the Milton with a bright food grade dye so that I can easily see when it’s reached all the outlets, I have LONG runs to various buildings and I needed to keep topping up the filter housings with MILTONS  So that the whole system was full and could then sit for the correct time before flushing out. If you did not have the dye you would NOT know when to add more disinfectant. The dye is also good as when you are flushing the system out you can be sure you have completely flushed it at all points as the water will run clear. 
When you clean the system your going to be putting a lot of chemicals into your septic tank / sewage treatment plant and this could kill off all the stuff you need to brake down the waste.... I am considering the possibility of building in some sort of diverter so that should I need to re clean the system I won’t bugger up my septic tank. 
  

[scottishjohn]

3 hours ago, joe90 said:

Will you retain ownership of the land above you where the spring is?.

don,t think it works like that with water suppies-no one can cut off yuor water -but iwill check everything you boys have posted 

keep the info and suggestions coming 

i thought of using a hydraulic pump and power it with the big drop ihave --not asure if they can pump up 400ft 

 any info would be good 

[jamieled]

@scottishjohn In Scotland you are generally required to submit a 'private water supply assessment' with your planning app. If you don't then they will often put a condition on your planning that you provide one prior to construction work commencing. They are looking for evidence of both quantity and quality for a supply. The requirement to do this does seem to vary a bit between local authorities.

 

This website:

https://dwqr.scot/private-supply/technical-information/physical-and-chemical-properties/

 

Provides the relevant info on the limits for certain parameters - colour, turbidity, iron, pH etc. If you need to get the water tested then there are private labs that can do it, but I found Scottish Water the most economical and easy to deal with.

 

You are generally correct that upstream landowners have a responsibility (in law) not to interfere with downstream users water supplies. This would also apply to a spring. In practice this can get a bit messy and I have been involved in a few jobs over the years with arguments between landowners and supply owners.

 

 

 

 

[scottishjohn]

I amy seem to be "butterflying"  a bit 

but I am also now looking again at bringing mains water up from the main road below .

and am looking now at solar powered pump station to see how that will work out 

I did originaly look at a mains pump stsation -but the length of power cable run down to it etc makes it expensive and hard work 

although that way  I could have 2 bar of mains pressure -

so all things still in the melting pot ,maybe cutting down volume and using solar power and large storage tank at top will be the solution ,If I can work with private source at worst fo only 1000l per day --then solar pump to give that +some should be viable --even in the dark of winter  ,with battery storage  and maybe wi-fi control link between tank and pump controller-to shut off pump when correct level reached?-

 

 

[joe90]

Thinking outside the box (as I do) (and I like spring water), your back garden slopes upwards, if you collected spring water 20m above the house you will get 2bar pressure ! Also being a Luddite I like simplicity, pumps, wifi etc can/will all go wrong at some point. 

Edited July 7, 2020 by joe90

[scottishjohn]

1 minute ago, joe90 said:

Thinking outside the box (as I do) (and I like spring water), your back garden slopes upwards, if you collected spring water 20m above the house you will get 2bar pressure !

I will be doing an exploration of the spring/stone culvert to see where it actually surfaces and if there is a possibility to pipe it direct through the field -

Isuspect where it rises wil give me plenty of pressure ,however not sure iwould want to plumb direct due to low flow rate in a drought 

-so there can be no pollution from what the farmer does.

I am reasonably sure the quality will be good as there are a lot of others using private supllies onthe same hill side,but will get it tested.

 Iwill get some piccies atsome point of what is there now

 

[scottishjohn]

found a good looking solar pumpand array from grundfos 

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0090/8368/2921/files/SQ-Flex-Data-Booklet.pdf?2092

worth a look if you planning naything like htis 

no batteries just pumps indaylight to your tank 

this is specced to give me 3000lt a day from mains supply --but it could be any supply

really

[scottishjohn]

UPDATE 

went for an excursion to find the source of the nile -known as my original water supply

 results not good --found where it is running open in the field,probably opend up by farmerfor sheep ?since house was last used 60 years ago  --but it appears not from a spring but from another stone culvert

 

even If i could  fence it off or makes him some sort of drinking pool there 

it is about same distance to pipe it to house as bringing it up from road and lots of dykes to go through  .all presuming the farmer would agree to alterations 

I can not find where that comes above ground further up the hil but did find other "issues" coming out of the ground  wwhich go back into ground ,but again all open to sheep drinking +crapping

Ithink best descitpion of it is aculverted  field drain and not a real spring,even though it runs all year  

maybe when it was first made in 17 80,s and the farm was not there then,no farm till about 1840,s --then it collected good water.

somone spent alot of time making a 600m +long stone culvert  to get some sort of supply for the house I am thinking 

 no proff no plans or maps to tell me anything

 

 So on reflection I have decided not to use it for my drinking water supply 

 will still be good for garden water+  a pond 

the question now is do it collect this dubious water to use for toilets etc  and cut down volume I need to pump up hill

getting more complicated every day this project

 

so back to pumping it up the hill from main road

I could opt to pump water from the quarry lake --but same amount of work only then I  need to clean it up 

and as there is NO water metering in scotland for private supplies--just part of the rates

and NO idon,t think I would get away with attaching a pico power turbine to mains supply--did think of it though .LOL

will update this thread with all specs once I have them for sure  

Edited July 9, 2020 by scottishjohn

[PeterW]

Could you not get them to horizontally bore into the hillside just above the house and pick up the aquifer that way ..? There will be water below the culvert/ spring, is that not an option ..? Would be cheaper than pumping up to the top of the hill. 

[joe90]

3 hours ago, scottishjohn said:

there is NO water metering in scotland for private supplies

didn’t know that, not a lot of point using the “Nile” then with the complications it will involve (apart from garden watering/pond etc i suppose?).

 

Question, does the “Nile” supply the quarry pond or is that another source?

[scottishjohn]

3 hours ago, PeterW said:

Could you not get them to horizontally bore into the hillside just above the house and pick up the aquifer that way ..? There will be water below the culvert/ spring, is that not an option ..? Would be cheaper than pumping up to the top of the hill. 

Ihonestly don,t know 

I did ask one company if they could slant drill into the lake -but from that company answer was no

 but maybe will try to find another company -,noy 

t sure how a horizontal bore hole would owrk -would have to be gravity to get water out if hole to collection tank 

[scottishjohn]

3 hours ago, PeterW said:

Could you not get them to horizontally bore into the hillside just above the house and pick up the aquifer that way ..? There will be water below the culvert/ spring, is that not an option ..? Would be cheaper than pumping up to the top of the hill. 

could not find a a slant driller ,but ball park figures from 2 different companies is in the 10-15K price range --so pumping up is a lot cheaper 

[PeterW]

But once it’s installed then the water effectively becomes free, other than the cost to support the filtering ..?

[scottishjohn]

2 hours ago, PeterW said:

But once it’s installed then the water effectively becomes free, other than the cost to support the filtering ..?

no water metering in scotland --so its not that expensive in annual costs --certainly will be cheaper than Uv and filtering requirement servicing  --could need special filters for dissolved minerals in own water-arsenic is a common problem in granite areas and I know we have an old copper mine a couple of miles away as well as old lead and silver mines in the area 

and of course no 100% warranty they will find enough water when they drill anyway ,especially as I have that big hole very close to me --and Iknow it has water feeding it from the rock faces

so on balance I think mains is the definite solution 

[iSelfBuild]

2 hours ago, scottishjohn said:

no water metering in scotland --so its not that expensive in annual costs --certainly will be cheaper than Uv and filtering requirement servicing  --could need special filters for dissolved minerals in own water-arsenic is a common problem in granite areas and I know we have an old copper mine a couple of miles away as well as old lead and silver mines in the area 

and of course no 100% warranty they will find enough water when they drill anyway ,especially as I have that big hole very close to me --and Iknow it has water feeding it from the rock faces

so on balance I think mains is the definite solution 

 

We have a water pumping solution on our site in Dumfries & Galloway which serves 7 dwellings. It is all metered for water usage by Scottish Water at each property - is that uncommon?

 

We never bought into the scheme... we just fitted one of these as we had enough flow over 24 hours, just bugger all pressure - https://www.anglianpumping.com/product/mains-pressure-boosting-systems/dab-e-sytank-and-e-sybox-pump?gclid=Cj0KCQjwgJv4BRCrARIsAB17JI4oS9PBBmPmdaWTDATjh_k3Rt0JeX33jOCaen7mXSL0o2UM9B_TfKYaApQUEALw_wcB

 

Here is some old information from 2012 on the solution implemented for the other sites:

 

1)      2700(?) litre header tank at upper end of site. Underground tank used, probably placed on surface and buried.

2)       32mm pipe connecting  lower 90mm main water  pipe to header tank. Ball cock connection to header tank.

3)      Existing site water pipework separated from the lower, incoming, 90mm water main.

4)      Dedicated electrical supply, with separate meter, taken to lower water main by buried armoured cable.

5)      Pump(s) at lower 90mm main to feed header via 32mm pipe, connected  at the lower   90mm mains pipe separately from the 32mm pipe described in 2) . Ball cock at header. Pumps installed in insulated and frost proofed cabinet. Pumps to have  pressure sensitive switches and to be fitted with break tanks and timers. Above ground  pipes in pump area to be insulated.

6)      Pumps on timers to provide water to the header tank. Possibly running several times during a 24 hour period.

7)      Header tank connected to existing 90mm site pipe by 50(?)mm pipe.

8 )     Pipe flushing valves fitted.

9)      Surface water tank to replace hydrants.

10)  Water purity tests – initially and yearly.

11)  Capital, running and any maintenance costs shared by users.

 

 

The header tank is small enough to be emptied and refilled on a regular basis, avoiding stagnant water.

 

 Site Description:-

 

Existing 90mm mains water pipe at the lower end of the site.

 

Water pressure at this 90mm main has become varied, sometimes providing pressure to supply the whole site, sometimes not.

 

The length of the site over which a water supply is required is 350 metres. This 350 metres starts at the lower end of the site (the 90mm mains pipe position) and rises approx 25 metres.

 

POSSIBLE SOLUTION.

 

To cater for the unpredictable pressure reductions :-

 

A header tank (2700 litre?)to be placed at the end of the 350 metre supply run described above.

This header to be connected to the 90mm lower mains pipe so that the header tank fills under mains pressure when it is available. The header tank to be filled several times a day if necessary to avoid stagnant water. This header tank to be connected to pressurise the existing site pipe network. The existing site pipe network to be separated from the incoming 90mm lower mains supply

 

When the mains pressure is too low to fill the header, then a pumped system to be used to fill the header tank.

 

The pumped system could be as follows: 2 pumps (to have a backup if necessary); break tanks to the pumps to comply with water regulations; pressure sensitive pump controls so that when the header tank was full the pump would stop; a timer to each pump so that the pumps could run alternately for a number of times a day (if the header tank was full then the pressure sensitive switch would stop the pump irrespective of the timer); insulated pumps and associated pipework (shed or cabinet); a separately metered electricity supply to the pumps.

 

 

 

Edited July 9, 2020 by iSelfBuild

[scottishjohn]

I think you chalets would be classed as commercial --that will be why its metered 

only domestic non commercial is not metered

 I need 12bar minimum to get it up the hill and give 1bar at tank so needs big pumps ,

so my solution is similar -as in I will have a 3000litre storage  tank 

I checked with defra and there will be no problem with stagnation with mains water  unless very long period of no use-if seasonal then drain for winter

 

when i asked them i was looking at possibly my house + 6 chalets ,so was looking at a much larger tank  25000ltre and  private supply which could be subject to very low flow in summer when most usage ,so was giving myself a 3 week drought scenario where flow rate could be down to 2000litres a day or less 

all the said was they would suggest i drain the tank at end of season or maybe use more smaller tanks -one in each chalet +ultraviolet in each chalet,so i could drain them down if not being used for long period . all the chalets would be belwo my house so no low pressure issues

still talking to the grunfoss sqf flex  suplier to fine tune the volume etc --but using solar saves me the problem and expense or running a 3 phase cable450m down the hill to power the pump station -admitted it was a larger flow and would run at 2000litre per hourand give 2 bar of pressure -but evne cutting down the volume Istill am stuck with expensive cabling -voltage drops etc and am ore expensive pumpset -up

there is no battery back up just runs as fast as the solar gives power -can run on 30-140vdc ,or ac if you want

is specced to give 1000l per DAY in dec +jan --and 4000lper day in summer months --so still thibnk i could run a couple of chalets on this set -up--assuming average usage of 150-200litre perday per person

I am considering adding another panel -spec says 3 x 275w panels --just to be sure

with enough panels the pump can give a 200M head of water-more panels more head and volume  -simple pressure sensor at lower end decides when to shut pump down when ballcock  at top tank closes --actually  its a different sort of valve that does not flutter like a ballcock --but you know what i mean 

not cheap by the time you have controller for pump and panels anda s/s accumlator and panels ==looking like £3500+vat =a break tank to drop the borehole  pump into --sideways 

 but the other pumping station was going to be more expensive + load of money for cabling +cable joiners -+still needed break tank +larger dia piping to go up the hill

same work to dig and bury the piping 

 

 

Edited July 9, 2020 by scottishjohn

[scottishjohn]

2 hours ago, iSelfBuild said:

POSSIBLE SOLUTION.

 

To cater for the unpredictable pressure reductions :-

 

A header tank (2700 litre?)to be placed at the end of the 350 metre supply run described above.

This header to be connected to the 90mm lower mains pipe so that the header tank fills under mains pressure when it is available. The header tank to be filled several times a day if necessary to avoid stagnant water. This header tank to be connected to pressurise the existing site pipe network. The existing site pipe network to be separated from the incoming 90mm lower mains supply

 

When the mains pressure is too low to fill the header, then a pumped system to be used to fill the header tank.

 

The pumped system could be as follows: 2 pumps (to have a backup if necessary); break tanks to the pumps to comply with water regulations; pressure sensitive pump controls so that when the header tank was full the pump would stop; a timer to each pump so that the pumps could run alternately for a number of times a day (if the header tank was full then the pressure sensitive switch would stop the pump irrespective of the timer); insulated pumps and associated pipework (shed or cabinet); a separately metered electricity supply to the pumps.

why do you need a tank -if you got mains water and only 25m head --just a bigger pump and feed them all direct with pump after yout break tank -

25m-call it 3bar +2bar pressure at end of line +another bar to allow for friction =6bar pump if you have correct pipe sizing

a quick look at pipe flow rates will tell you -but 90mm pipe is a big one considering houses quite often only have a 25mm -a snall accumlator in each should  sort out any glitchs as others turn things on 

 quite sure the welsh plumber will be along at some point to correct me if i,m wrong

Edited July 9, 2020 by scottishjohn

[iSelfBuild]

10 hours ago, scottishjohn said:

why do you need a tank -if you got mains water and only 25m head --just a bigger pump and feed them all direct with pump after yout break tank -

25m-call it 3bar +2bar pressure at end of line +another bar to allow for friction =6bar pump if you have correct pipe sizing

a quick look at pipe flow rates will tell you -but 90mm pipe is a big one considering houses quite often only have a 25mm -a snall accumlator in each should  sort out any glitchs as others turn things on 

 quite sure the welsh plumber will be along at some point to correct me if i,m wrong

 

Some times during the day the flow can be zero, in fact had a few rare days when it's been nothing. So the idea of the big scheme is that the holding tank (at the very top of the site) is filled by mains pressure very slowly by a mains flow pipe when there is pressure and flow through the mains pipe. If it ever get's near empty then the pumps kick in and feeds via a separate pipe. They very rarely kick in to be honest.

 

The header tank then pressures the flow down.

 

God knows why it was designed like this. The 90mm is only where it comes into the land from the neighbouring farm. It's teed off in 50mm I think straight away. We never liked the idea of it all that's why we never bought into the scheme and put in our own holding tank and pressure system in our lodge. It works great. When I bought my plot next door which is a rental unit I bought a plot which was on the scheme. So I now have all the hassle of ongoing maintenance, one of the pumps has had to be replaced already. There not cheap!

[jamieled]

@scottishjohn similar to what Peter mentioned, although they're not very common, have you considered a well? The groundwater head is clearly pretty high in places if you have springs and now would be the time to find out as it the groundwater head should be approaching its lower levels.

[scottishjohn]

15 minutes ago, jamieled said:

@scottishjohn similar to what Peter mentioned, although they're not very common, have you considered a well? The groundwater head is clearly pretty high in places if you have springs and now would be the time to find out as it the groundwater head should be approaching its lower levels.

already answerd that one earlier in  this thread

Edited July 10, 2020 by scottishjohn