Driveway through Non-Curtilage Paddocks

[harry_angel]

We recently reclaimed PD rights and are looking to extend our terrible existing access driveway (so that we don't have to walk 60m just to get to our front door!).

 

We'd look to extend the current gravel driveway over our own land, by cutting through the paddocks we own and then looping round to the front door.

 

Qs/observations:

 

• the council are unlikely to view the paddocks as part of the curtilage of the dwelling house
• this means said paddocks are exempt from PD rights, I believe
• however, we have a huge amount of hardcore from a recent demolition
• if we simply lay said hardcore in a shallow trench, gravel it and run it through the paddocks is that lawful? Because the driveway doesn't contain any concrete and is not therefore "hard-standing"
• or is it simpler than that, and we can simply create said driveway extension, hard-standing - as it's on our land

 

Here are two bits of conflicting advice from the council commenting on previous apps/pre apps:

 

“the revised change to the existing driveway is within the site, and as such is considered acceptable…” (from officer report approving previous subtle alteration to driveway)

 

“The above notwithstanding, whilst it is not entirely clear from your submitted drawings, it would appear as though the proposed new line of the access would go through part of the existing paddock area. From a quick look at the plans, although it is clearly within your ownership, I would be surprised if this paddock would be considered as legitimately forming part of the curtilage of your dwelling and, on this basis, the formation of a hardstanding/drive would almost certainly, in my opinion, require express planning permission from the Council as the paddock land would not benefit from permitted development rights. However, I should repeat this is only an informal view and does not represent a legal determination as to the need (or otherwise) for planning permission. “

(from pre app advice)

 

Very much welcome any thoughts, would love not to have to do yet another council app.

[PeterW]

If you use gravel then it is not hard standing. 
 

May also be worth putting a field shelter half way along ... you’ve then got a reason to have a driveway to service the “horses”... ?

[harry_angel]

2 minutes ago, PeterW said:

If you use gravel then it is not hard standing. 
 

May also be worth putting a field shelter half way along ... you’ve then got a reason to have a driveway to service the “horses”... ?

 

I like where your head's at Peter! (twirls villainous moustache, gazes in to fireplace): "Horses...yes....must get horses...lots of them...shelters...yes..."

 

So PD limitations only apply to hard-standing driveways, is that correct?

[ProDave]

Or use grass blocks, those perforated concrete blocks that allow grass to grow through while still giving you a firm surface to drive on.

[Ferdinand]

I would put a an access to the paddock in first from the road, if they may insist it is some sort of separate unit.

 

Then obvs you need one from the house curtilege to access the horse.

[Ferdinand]

If you are going to be the villain filled with devious cunning, you could write them a "is it this or that" letter.

 

Personally I would do it in 2 halves.

Edited June 27, 2020 by Ferdinand

[PeterW]

1 hour ago, harry_angel said:

So PD limitations only apply to hard-standing driveways, is that correct?

If you are creating a hard standing above a certain size from memory it needs planning. However as @ProDave said, you could use the grass blocks so it looks temporary or just scrape off with a JCB, layer of Terram, hardcore compacted down and gravel over the top. 
 

Sprinkling of mixed grass and wildflower seeds down the middle and edges and it will look like it’s been there for years ...  

[PeterW]

How big is the paddock out of interest ..? 

[joe90]

Ha, this was part of my planning fight!. Half our plot is field and half residential my wife (before we met back In 2011) applied for planning permission to put a new entrance into the field next to the residential so she could use it for both, when it was finished the council said she could not use it for the house so had to re instate the fence between field and house (if I was about then I would have fought it). When we applied for planning to replace the bungalow with a cottage part of our application was to use this new entrance for both field and house pointing out it had a proper splay and decent visibility on a straight road. The old entrance had tall hedges and no visibility near a bend. The council denied we had planning permission for the new entrance but we had council papers confirming it was granted, they then said there was no visibility and we didn’t own land either side to create a splay, yes we did but didn’t need to as it existed. It took me a year of persistent calling highways to get someone out to view the situation, when they eventually came they agreed visibility was good at the new entrance, old entrance was dangerous BUT they were not allowed to say this to the planners they could only say they did not object (jobs worth or what). Eventually when I went to appeal the officer agreed 100% with all my proposals (I won’t go into all the other things the planners fought over) and informed our local planners they were not abiding by their own policies. So don’t be afraid to fight the council planners which ever way you go, I don’t have a very high opinion of any of them.

Edited June 27, 2020 by joe90

[Temp]

3 hours ago, harry_angel said:

if we simply lay said hardcore in a shallow trench, gravel it and run it through the paddocks is that lawful? Because the driveway doesn't contain any concrete and is not therefore "hard-standing"

 

I believe this thread is partly relevant although it relates to resurfacing an existing road.

 

https://forum.buildhub.org.uk/topic/15335-planning-for-tarmac-laying-on-unadopted-road/

 

The planning officer said resurfacing an existing road could amount to "engineering operations" requiring planning permission.  The reference I found below suggest that's not true for an existing road but could apply to a new road or highway access...

 

https://www.lexisnexis.com/uk/lexispsl/planning/document/393788/5J6Y-V7J1-F18C-4292-00000-00/Is_planning_permission_required

 

Quote

 

Engineering operations
Engineering operations are not defined in the TCPA 1990, although s 336(1) expressly includes 'the formation or laying out of means of access to highways’, and excludes maintenance, improvement and repair works on/to roads, sewers, mains, pipes, cables or other apparatus etc.
 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, harry_angel said:

Here are two bits of conflicting advice from the council commenting on previous apps/pre apps:

 

“the revised change to the existing driveway is within the site, and as such is considered acceptable…” (from officer report approving previous subtle alteration to driveway)

 

“The above notwithstanding, whilst it is not entirely clear from your submitted drawings, it would appear as though the proposed new line of the access would go through part of the existing paddock area. From a quick look at the plans, although it is clearly within your ownership, I would be surprised if this paddock would be considered as legitimately forming part of the curtilage of your dwelling and, on this basis, the formation of a hardstanding/drive would almost certainly, in my opinion, require express planning permission from the Council as the paddock land would not benefit from permitted development rights. However, I should repeat this is only an informal view and does not represent a legal determination as to the need (or otherwise) for planning permission. “

(from pre app advice)

 

I don't think those are conflicting...

 

The second part implies Planning Permission is required.

The first part implies it would be approved. I would quote the first part back at them in a covering letter with any planning application.

 

 

 

Edited June 27, 2020 by Temp

[harry_angel]

4 hours ago, PeterW said:

How big is the paddock out of interest ..? 

 

The paddocks are about 2 acres, the quote-unquote "curtilage" (in the council's almost inevitable view) would be 1 acre.

 

The house is basically back to front: you enter at the back, and then the driveway stops, leaving you to lug all your sh*t 60m round a (in winter) absolutely sodden pathway that nobody has ever properly dealt with, till you finally reach the front door.

 

Yup, you guessed it, the Amazon drivers and the postie luuuurrrve us.... (as they schlep parcels 60m on foot in the rain!)

[joe90]

24 minutes ago, harry_angel said:

the quote-unquote "curtilage" (in the council's almost inevitable view)

if you think their view is wrong don’t be afraid to challenge it. With ours the planners also told us half the garden was agricultural and when I challenged them and asked how they knew this she said she looked on google Earth, well, I laughed out loud at her and explained there was no fence, hedge, ditch or any other type of barrier where they said it changed and I could get signed letters from more than one member of my wife's family to say it had been garden in excess of 30 years, she sheepishly conceded. (and you wonder why I don’t trust planners!!!!!).

 

p.s a simple plan of your plot may be helpful.

 

p.p.s. Do the paddocks have their own gate to a road fir tractor access?

Edited June 27, 2020 by joe90

[PeterW]

If the road is not a trunk road or a classified road then you don’t need PP  to create a field opening. Anything onto a classified road requires PP and highways approval. Nothing stopping you putting your field shelter near the house and creating access to it ... 0.4 Hectares (0.995 acres) is the limit that applies to agricultural PP for class B permitted development rights. 

[harry_angel]

@joe90 it does seem like a v similar scenario.

 

As you can see, the current access comes off the road, between houses and and then opens up with the paddocks on the left. The (current) driveway carries on straight and then ends about 60m from the dwelling house, and you have to follow a curving footpath (not shown) all the way to the front door  (which is on the east side!)

 

What a mess.

 

Anyway, you can see via the green line what the proposed driveway extension would be. I calculated said extension would be about 130m in length.

 

Thanks for the input @Temp and @PeterW and @Ferdinand

 

So would you all...

1. create the driveway as shown but using old hardcore blocks and gravel on top or something technically non tarmac-y
2. then apply for Cert of Lawfulness citing prior council comment and, frankly, our need to be able to walk to our dwelling house from the car without our legs falling off!
3. if approved, great, if denied then what? maybe a retrospective planning app or just leave it for 4 years and then re-apply for the cert?

Please tell me what you would do. Like I said I have a lot of hardcore from a prior demolition so I'd just be paying for gravel, edging and labour.

 

 

[joe90]

Would any of your neighbours “drop you in it “ ?  Can this be seen from the road?. If the answer to both is no I would crack on ?

[dpmiller]

why not just widen the current path into a driveway?

[harry_angel]

6 minutes ago, dpmiller said:

why not just widen the current path into a driveway?

 

2 reasons: 1) I don't want to drive through my current lawn to get to the house (it's difficult to describe, but on all sorts of levels it just wouldn't work) and 2) I'm trying to set some kind of precedent here and split these paddocks/create a grey area of what is and isn't the garden/slowly turn the paddocks in to brownfield.

 

@joe90 they might have a crack but only if they knew more about planning law than us! By us I mean - us on this board. They'd likely just gnash their teeth a bit but assume we're doing it under PD (which they all know we recently reclaimed) and presume they are powerless to stop it. Also it would still be a good 25m from the border and maybe as much as 75m from their actual dwelling houses so in all fairness it won't affect them.

 

I guess ultimately this comes down to financial risk and the likely cost of both doing it....and potentially in an extreme scenario....undoing it.

[harry_angel]

Oh and no it can't be seen from the road @joe90

[ProDave]

I don't know about anyone else, but am I the only one eyeing the paddock as a potential plot?

 

So the existing driveway passes through the edge of the paddock. that would be good enough for me to route the new drive through the paddock. But in view of the above sentence, round the top edge of it, not through the middle.

[harry_angel]

We considered that @ProDave but then thought: "if the drive goes at the top then the paddocks are still...the paddocks. In their entirety. Whereas if we can split them down the middle then basically we weaken their whole position because what was one is now 4 chunks. Also you can then begin landscaping the northern side of the driveway and putting maybe an outbuilding in under PD and again creating grey areas about what is and isn't curtilage and what is and isn't garden".

 

And that's our best long term shot of developing this green belt plot!

[ProDave]

You could remove all fences between your garden and the paddock and mow the paddock like a cultivated lawn, put garden type features like sheds and greenhouses in the paddock and plant flower beds.

 

Then in (I think) 4 years seek a certificate of lawful development for change of use to garden.

 

That would make it easier to get PP for a plot is the land is then "garden"

[joe90]

I still say crack on, worth the risk (IMO). I am supposed to re In state the fence between my field and house but it’s last on my “to do list” (if you know what I mean!). 

[Temp]

3 hours ago, harry_angel said:

So would you all...

1. create the driveway as shown but using old hardcore blocks and gravel on top or something technically non tarmac-y
2. then apply for Cert of Lawfulness citing prior council comment and, frankly, our need to be able to walk to our dwelling house from the car without our legs falling off!
3. if approved, great, if denied then what? maybe a retrospective planning app or just leave it for 4 years and then re-apply for the cert?

 

If you just build it the planners will either ignore it or they won't. If they ignore it all well and good.

 

If not then I reckon their first move will be an informal approach telling you they believe you need Planning Permission. If you keep ignoring them they will have to decide if they want to initiate enforcement action.

 

If they feel strongly they will  probably write a scary letter that talks about initiating enforcement action if not rectified by some date. At that point I reckon it would be pointless submitting an application for a Certificate of Lawfulness because their letter will state their reasons why they believe PP is required. Once you get that enforcement notice you should file a planning application. That will delay any  enforcement action  until the planning application and any appeal is processed. 

 

If they are extremely concerned and think you are going to do something much worse like create a lorry park or travellers site or tarmac the whole paddock they might hit you with an injunction to stop work. Personally I doubt they would do that as they would risk costs of perhaps £10K.

 

3 hours ago, harry_angel said:

The (current) driveway carries on straight and then ends about 60m from the dwelling house, and you have to follow a curving footpath (not shown) all the way to the front door  (which is on the east side!)

 

I'm not sure why you cant convert that curving footpath into a driveway? I can see reasons why you might not want to.

 

[harry_angel]

1 hour ago, joe90 said:

I still say crack on, worth the risk (IMO). I am supposed to re In state the fence between my field and house but it’s last on my “to do list” (if you know what I mean!). 

 

Haha...and your To-Do List does like the The Great Wall of China Joe, you may get to that task....in 2154.

 

I think based on all of the above I will just go ahead, cheers all.

 

PS. @Temp yes of all the myriad options that is actually the least attractive tbh, it would be like the postman driving right through your front garden...not appealing at all.

[Ferdinand]

Or you could still be talking about it on BH ?.