worldwidewebs Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 We're having our Internorm windows fitted at the moment and I have a query that I want to be better informed about before I discuss it with the installers. They've installed the door at the side of the house which has an attached window and I noticed late last week that I could see daylight between the frame of the door and the frame of the window! Obviously this can be sorted easy enough but what I want to know is how should these two elements be joined. I'm guessing that they are bolted together in some fashion but what actually provides the seal? Is it simply a sealant of some sort or a rubber/foam seal for example? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oranjeboom Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 Are they internorm-approved installers? Would have thought they know how to do this 'properly'? I have the same setup here - full sized sidelight next to window. Also just fixes to each other, but inherently potential for air gaps. I would have thought some sort of gasket would be stuck on the frame before the two parts are affixed to each other. That should happen before...I would have thought. I would have favoured that approach rather than trying to seal it up afterwards. Not sure what type of gasket you would need to get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oz07 Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 Good question, probably with a bead of some sort. When making timber combo Frames I always liked to groove each and put a strip of timber to join the two, sometime 2 strips. Combats twisting and keeps weather proof if frame moves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeSharp01 Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 Is it to passive house spec? if so there will be an approved connection and / or your PHPP model will show a cold bridge calculation for it. Making it air tight will be easy with tape but that will not deal with the structural or thermal join. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryE Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 (edited) 4 hours ago, worldwidewebs said: They've installed the door at the side of the house which has an attached window and I noticed late last week that I could see daylight between the frame of the door and the frame of the window! Obviously this can be sorted easy enough but what I want to know is how should these two elements be joined. I'm guessing that they are bolted together in some fashion but what actually provides the seal? Hi. Who is your installer? What is the range for your windows? Is this the same for the coupled door? Is your installer also the window supplier? We have exactly the same configuration and this caused quite a lot of issues at detailed survey, but installation was trouble-free. The core point is that there must be an Internorm approved coupler between the two frames to ensure that they are tightly coupled from both a mechanical and air-tightness perspective. In our case the Ecohaus SW salesman quoted on the basis of the KF200 range doors and windows and when we said that the KF200 style doors weren't what we were looking for for the front door, he said that this would be best sorted at detailed survey, at which time we could swap the door style and pay any uplift, so we proceeded and paid our deposit on this basis. The problem came when our survey engineer said that we could only have a KF200-style door because the only couplers that Internorm supplied for KF200 profiles was a KF200 to KF200 type. We therefore had to have a KF200 door (and this then got us into trouble with the planners, but that's a different story). Back to your installation -- if you can see daylight between the door and the window, then the coupler is missing. Without the coupler, (a) you will never pass airtightness and (b) the mechanical fit of the window + door is compromised because they aren't properly coupled. Not good on both accounts. Whatever happens, the only way to fit the coupler is to remove and to reinstall both the door and window, as they need to be coupled before installation in the timber frame. If you've chosen a different door and window style then you have an issue but one where you could reasonably expect to have the supplier point out that the installation that they were supplying was an invalid configuration. Sorry to bring bad news, but you really need to sort this one out sooner than later. And IMO, this is one where you should not accept a compromise. You#ve paid a lot for quality product and that is what should be delivered. Terry Edited December 18, 2016 by TerryE Missing an imprtant not! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
worldwidewebs Posted December 18, 2016 Author Share Posted December 18, 2016 The windows and the door are Internorm HF310 Studio. Looking at the manufacturing schedule, it does show that there is a coupling profile, so thanks for pointing out that there should be one, but I'm guessing that this hasn't been fitted for whatever reason. I'm going to speak with them in the morning and see what they say - at least I know that what has been done isn't what should have been done. By the way, they are all supplied and installed by Spectrum Architectural who are an Internorm First Partner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamiehamy Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 We had the same with ours - tech drawings show a coupling panel but supplier say not required. I wasn't satisfied with that but what can I do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
worldwidewebs Posted December 18, 2016 Author Share Posted December 18, 2016 Just now, jamiehamy said: We had the same with ours - tech drawings show a coupling panel but supplier say not required. I wasn't satisfied with that but what can I do? So what did you do? Who was the supplier/installer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeSharp01 Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 1 hour ago, worldwidewebs said: By the way, they are all supplied and installed by Spectrum Architectural who are an Internorm First Partner If you haven't already don't pay them until the job is done as per the spec agreed in the contract, no joiner no payment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamiehamy Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 37 minutes ago, worldwidewebs said: So what did you do? Who was the supplier/installer? We installed them ourselves - I put a double bead of clear Sikaflex and brought them together. The coupling panel was actually a cover/joint panel to go down the gap - but despite it being in the tech drawing, it would have looked odd. However, there is a gap between the alu framing where you can see the timber beneath and that annoys me. However in the grand scheme of our windows, this is fairly low down the list. 5months since the first arrived, at least another month to go before they are anywhere near what they should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryE Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 2 hours ago, jamiehamy said: However, there is a gap between the alu framing where you can see the timber beneath and that annoys me. More to the point, the interface between the aluclad and the underlying frame isn't supposed to be exposed to the elements. So not only does the closer mechanically interlock the two frames, in this case it also include a flange to bridge the adjacent aluminum cladding elements. Given that you've spent all this money on a top-class widow system, I don' understand why you'd compromise on something so trivial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamiehamy Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 21 minutes ago, TerryE said: More to the point, the interface between the aluclad and the underlying frame isn't supposed to be exposed to the elements. So not only does the closer mechanically interlock the two frames, in this case it also include a flange to bridge the adjacent aluminum cladding elements. Given that you've spent all this money on a top-class widow system, I don' understand why you'd compromise on something so trivial. You said it - trivial. I'm picking my battles and this padticular battle is not worth winning. All will be told one day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryE Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 Sounds like you are having battles that you don't deserve. Sorry to hear that! I didn't like ecoHaus Internorms T&Cs, but I can't find any material faults with their installation service. They did a good job for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
worldwidewebs Posted December 19, 2016 Author Share Posted December 19, 2016 So an update... I spoke with the chaps on site today and they showed me a schematic of how the two elements should connect. First, there is a connecting profile which connects the timber of the two elements together - we are guessing that this wasn't fitted for some reason as if it had been then we wouldn't have been able to see daylight! Secondly, there is a rubber seal which sits behind the aluminium trim - this has been delivered in white rather than dark grey and it was decided not to fit this as it would have shown up between the two elements. The guys were very helpful and made it very clear that this would be sorted without question. They are going to remove the door and window and check/fit the connecting profile and then also fit the rubber seal. They are then going to run a thin bead of dark grey sealant between the elements so that the white seal doesn't show - this will look fine and I'm happy with that. Hopefully this will be done tomorrow (or at latest Wednesday) but I have to say I'm pretty happy with how they dealt with it all. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted December 19, 2016 Share Posted December 19, 2016 One other detail worth considering, is where are the fixing screws? We have a similar window / door pair, and when my joiners fitted them, they removed the door catch plates and drilled the holes for the fixing screws behind them, so when screwed together, and the catch plates replaced, you don't see any fixings joining the door to the window. A friend has the same windows and the joiner just drilled a row of holes, so when the door is opened, you see the fixing screws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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