Plan for an unusual house

[Falesh]

I've gone through a lot of different plans and have homed in on one that seems to tick all our boxes for the smallest amount of space. This plan is one I will be taking to an architect to finalize, so it isn't meant to be perfect. What would be useful is if anyone can point out stuff that obviously won't work or things I have forgotten.

 

I have ME so I sleep lightly till midday or later and as such I need a very soundproof bedroom. That means it can’t share a wall with rooms other people will use. I also spend most of my time in my bedroom as I can’t walk much so it is more a bedroom flat than anything else. Since I can’t get out much I want to bring as much of the outdoors in, hence the large window facing what will be a wildlife garden.

 

My father will be living in the other large bedroom and also wants it to be fairly self contained and soundproof so that we can both have our own guests without bothering the other.

 

The gap between these two rooms is slightly awkward, but there has to be some gap for soundproofing and so making it 1.95m lets it have uses like for hanging washing to dry, storing bikes, etc.

 

For the rest of the house, we need 2 spare bedrooms and a living room big enough to host family get togethers. The table is a dining/pool table so room around that for cueing is important. I would like this to be a passive house if that is affordable.

 

 

[Dreadnaught]

Intriguing design.

 

Will it be a bungalow? What type of roof (flat or pitched)? Have you considered roof windows?

[Moonshine]

A couple of comments

 

• That 1.95m gap is very awkward and i think that you should just include that in the envelope of the house. If you have that gap it will make the roof design more complicated. Is there only purpose for that gap for sound? you could get really really good sound insulation from a 300 - 400mm wall width.
• The lobbies to each of the larger bedrooms are slightly odd, why do they have doors on them? sound reduction from the main area?
• Generally i think you could be much more efficient with space, and get those two smaller bedrooms a bit larger and better integrated.

Edited February 19, 2020 by Moonshine

[Falesh]

My earlier plans had the two spare bedrooms and guest bathroom upstairs, but having them downstairs means I can help keep them tidy as stairs are very tiring for me. With regards to the roof that was something I was going to leave to the architect as I don't really mind what type it is as long as it meets the passive house spec, if we can do that, and is as cheap, but durable, as possible. The one other thought I had was that having a loft could be useful for storage and possible conversion down the road. I can't see that we will want a loft conversion, but all things being equal, having the option is better then not.

[Jeremy Harris]

I agree with the above about the 1.95m gap.  Just making a thicker internal wall will give the same level, probably better, of sound suppression, I'm sure.  Our external walls are extremely good at keeping out sound, yet are all timber.  The secret seems to be the thick layer of dense blown cellulose  insulation, perhaps together with the twin stud wall design, that isolates the inner and outer skins from each other. 

 

Also, if that space is external, then including it inside the envelope will reduce the heat loss a fair bit, by reducing the external wall area.

 

Challenging set of requirements, for sure!

[Mr Punter]

Making this a u shape means you have a very high external wall to floor ratio so no chance of it being very energy efficient.  It also complicates the roof design.

[Falesh]

2 minutes ago, Moonshine said:

A couple of comments

 

• That 1.95m gap is very awkward and i think that you should just include that in the envelope of the house. If you have that gap it will make the roof design more complicated. Is there only purpose for that gap for sound? you could get really really good sound insulation from a 300 - 400mm wall width.
• The lobbies to each of the larger bedrooms are slightly odd, why do they have doors on them?
• Generally i think you could be much more efficient with space, and get those two smaller bedrooms a bit larger and better integrated.

 

The gap also lets the rooms have outside access. For me this is important as I can wheel my office chair over to let the dog out, or just have a shorter talk to get into the garden. Since the door is next to the other one it lets me retain as much wall area inside the room for storage, desk space, etc. Having a the room share a wall would hurt the soundproofing and that is just too important, any loss of sleep has a really big impact on me.

 

The lobbies are for sound proofing. Doors are a real weak point for sound, so that design lets the first door reduce the sound and the second eliminate it.

[Moonshine]

3 minutes ago, Falesh said:

Having a the room share a wall would hurt the soundproofing and that is just too important, any loss of sleep has a really big impact on me.

 

The lobbies are for sound proofing. Doors are a real weak point for sound, so that design lets the first door reduce the sound and the second eliminate it.

 

The doors are indeed the weak point, and you have two doors opposite each other on the 1.95m gap. So sound will go through these, and the sound proofing provided by the 1.95m gap is irrelevant unless the transmission path through the doors is treated / controlled.

 

i can understand your loss of sleep is very important, but the sound insulation can be treated is a lot better way than a gap (derogated by doors), and you would loose all that lovely internal area.

[ProDave]

As a compromise, keep that gap between the bedrooms as outside space, but span the roof over it, giving a much more conventional roof design and overall appearance and making that gap a covered outside space.

[Declan52]

You have 3 small bathrooms each of which looks to small. By removing the really small corridor at each you could have 2 much bigger bathrooms . You can buy heavy doors,oak or walnut which will be better for keeping sound out of your offices.

Move the front door to the end of the Wall so it's a square. You will save a fortune in terms of doing the roof plus you won't need to buy 2 external doors for your offices.

 

 

[Moonshine]

14 minutes ago, Jeremy Harris said:

Our external walls are extremely good at keeping out sound, yet are all timber.  The secret seems to be the thick layer of dense blown cellulose  insulation, perhaps together with the twin stud wall design, that isolates the inner and outer skins from each other.

 

bang on.

 

I have sound tested E-WS-1 party wall constructions as below

 

https://www.robustdetails.com/patterns/selecting-your-robust-details/steel-frame-walls/e-ws-1/

 

With the cavity filled with 300mm of insulation getting D_ntw + C_tr 58 dB, which is 13 dB over the building reg requirements for party walls between houses. Build something like that (with timber) without the door in it, and that will be fine enough.

 

 

[Falesh]

5 minutes ago, Moonshine said:

 

The doors are indeed the weak point, and you have two doors opposite each other on the 1.95m gap. So sound will go through these, and the sound proofing provided by the 1.95m gap is irrelevant unless the transmission path through the doors is treated / controlled.

 

i can understand your loss of sleep is very important, but the sound insulation can be treated is a lot better way than a gap (derogated by doors), and you would loose all that lovely internal area.

 

You have a point, but it is easier to buy chunky airtight external doors then getting good soundproofed indoor ones. I definintly agree that the gap is, odd, but all my research on soundproofing has shown that if you want to soundproof a room you either can't share a wall or you have to spend more then it would cost to build a room within a room to do it. Having said that, I am by no means an expert on acoustics so there may be a way of doing things differntly. This is one thing I can't gamble on though, it has to work.

[Jeremy Harris]

6 minutes ago, Moonshine said:

 

bang on.

 

I have sound tested E-WS-1 party wall constructions as below

 

https://www.robustdetails.com/patterns/selecting-your-robust-details/steel-frame-walls/e-ws-1/

 

With the cavity filled with 300mm of insulation getting D_ntw + C_tr 58 dB, which is 13 dB over the building reg requirements for party walls between houses. Build something like that (with timber) without the door in it, and that will be fine enough.

 

 

 

Our external walls are essentially two stud walls, made from 38 x 89 timber, clad on the outer surfaces with board, with the 300mm gap between the outer skins filled with blown cellulose.  It's a bit spooky as to how well this attenuates sound.  Our front wall is adjacent to the drive and we can't even here big trucks backing up.  Usually the first we know that we have visitors is when the door bell rings, or if I spot them on the CCTV.  It takes a bit of getting used to, though, living in a silent house.

 

It would be very easy to use the same construction method for in internal wall.

[Falesh]

9 minutes ago, Declan52 said:

You have 3 small bathrooms each of which looks to small. By removing the really small corridor at each you could have 2 much bigger bathrooms . You can buy heavy doors,oak or walnut which will be better for keeping sound out of your offices.

Move the front door to the end of the Wall so it's a square. You will save a fortune in terms of doing the roof plus you won't need to buy 2 external doors for your offices.

 

Both myself and my father would like en suite private bathrooms rather then shared ones. This is also for soundproofing as the bathrooms form a buffer room between the bedrooms and the rest of the house.

[Jeremy Harris]

I'm concerned about the real level of soundproofing that you will get from two facing doors.  When I was working I used to stay away in hotels a lot, and some rooms use the two facing door method to form a sound lobby and some arrange the doors to be at right angles to each other.  The ones with doors angled to each other were a great deal quieter than the ones with the doors facing.  Hotel rooms generally have pretty heavy fire doors on rooms, so are probably better at keeping noise out than most domestic doors.

 

The other experience we had was a house we lived in years ago that had two parallel extensions out the back, separated by a gap that was a bit over 2m wide.  Sounds used to reverberate in that space, enough for it to be annoying when trying to watch TV.  I'm not sure exactly what the problem was, but suspect that it may have been similar to the effect you get when walking through an alleyway, where any noise seems to get amplified by reflections from the walls.

 

I think it would be pretty straightforward to make a dividing wall very well soundproofed, without an air gap.  There is a lot of information about doing this available, as it's a common problem, plus there are standards now for reduction of noise transmission through party walls.  A lot of commercial buildings have a need for high levels of sound attenuation between rooms, too.  We had labs at work where we needed to separate areas than needed to be extremely quiet from areas where there was equipment making a fair bit of noise, and the designers of the building did a very good job at making the walls attenuate noise.

 

Might well be worth looking at how much attenuation a well-designed wall would give, and also look at ways to reduce sound from reflecting from surfaces.  This latter point can be as important as making the structure fairly soundproof, by reducing the sound pressure level right at the surface of walls.

[Moonshine]

23 minutes ago, Falesh said:

I am by no means an expert on acoustics so there may be a way of doing things differently

 

I have been doing acoustics for 15+ years and the term expert gets banded about a bit (i have been called one, but I really don't like the term).

 

As you are building from the ground up you can do a lot in terms of layout and wall specifications.

 

The lobby is a good idea, but you need to think about the practicalities and access, as getting a good acoustic door needs seals on all perimeters.

 

Have a look here for the type of constructions.

 

https://www.lorientuk.com/resource-centre/acoustic-search

 

Also, are you looking to acoustic up-spec the external window?

 

[Falesh]

The current extension I live in has a heavy firedoor that was bought for soundproofing, but it only does so much as I don't think it forms as perfect a seal as neccasary. For this house both the doors and frames will be bought to make sure they seal properly.

 

It's good to know that you can do a soundproof wall, I have found getting good information on this aspect of the build very difficult. The window would need to be pretty good, though the noises from outside tend to be less of an issue for me. Birdsong and well damped general noise I can ignore, but even very quiet talking or music involentarily gets my attention making me wake up.

 

I'll make up a plan without the gap and see how it works out.

[Jeremy Harris]

We've found that our 52mm thick triple glazing is pretty effective at reducing noise levels.  The only sounds that are really noticeable through it are when heavy rain is blowing directly at it.  Traffic noise etc is very well attenuated.  Most of our windows use a 4mm - 20mm - 4mm - 20mm - 4mm section, and I suspect that it's the two 20mm spaces that make the difference.  We have some glazing in the doors that's thinner, with a 6mm - 16mm - 4mm -16mm - 6mm section and that's not as good at keeping noise out, although still much better than the double glazing at our old house.

[Ferdinand]

I think this acoustics debate may go round in circles to an extent for want of specific experience / reference.

 

Can I suggest you ask for a few people with varying constructions where you can go and visit, and take a ghetto-blaster or  computer plus speaker with a recording of the type of noise you are concerned about (or a person with a trombone ?) to gain some real examples of how the acoustics work for you with various known types of construction? You may be pleasantly surprised, or at least could rule things out more authoritatively.

 

I am sure there will be some near York, and BH members are always pleased to welcome fellow self-builders.

 

Having a less complex outline and roof would potentially save 10-20k.

 

On a more general - but perhaps too detailed for this early stage - point, I think that beds in corners will be difficult to look after eg change fitted sheets if you have movement challenges, unless you know you will have a carer / cleaner who can do it.

 

Ferdinand

Edited February 19, 2020 by Ferdinand

[Stewpot]

On 19/02/2020 at 17:40, Ferdinand said:

...or a person with a trombone...

 

If it's a paying gig, I'll be right round.

[Moonshine]

On 19/02/2020 at 17:40, Ferdinand said:

I think this acoustics debate may go round in circles to an extent for want of specific experience / reference.

 

Can I suggest you ask for a few people with varying constructions where you can go and visit, and take a ghetto-blaster or  computer plus speaker with a recording of the type of noise you are concerned about (or a person with a trombone ?) to gain some real examples of how the acoustics work for you with various known types of construction? You may be pleasantly surprised, or at least could rule things out more authoritatively.

 

Tbh I don't think that would really be a worth while exercise as you don't know what the objective sound reduction of each wall is unless you test them. Also a masonry wall will sound different to a stud wall.

 

The specification of wall can be derived buy using a matrix as below from BS8233:2014 (note these are DnT,w figures not Rw figures)

 

[Ferdinand]

7 hours ago, Moonshine said:

Tbh I don't think that would really be a worth while exercise as you don't know what the objective sound reduction of each wall is unless you test them.

 

I was alighting on what seemed to be @Falesh's scepticism as to alternatives, and wondering if the actual subjective experience would help.

[Falesh]

I'm not closed to other idea, it's just that I place a high bar on something that is very important to get right. That is why Moonshine's input is very valueable as his credentials in this field are very reassuring.

 

On 19/02/2020 at 17:40, Ferdinand said:

On a more general - but perhaps too detailed for this early stage - point, I think that beds in corners will be difficult to look after eg change fitted sheets if you have movement challenges, unless you know you will have a carer / cleaner who can do it.

 

I appreciate the comment, that is the sort of thing that could catch someone out. Thankfully I don't have mobility issues with regards to how I get from A to B, it's just that I don't have the energy to move around repeatedly or very far.

[Mike]

I have to agree with the comments above, to which I would add that having all 3 baths blocking access to the bathroom windows is not great. And the two guest bedrooms are not very generously sized.

 

I think you could make better use of the space and still achieve your objectives.

[Ferdinand]

HI again @Falesh.

 

I've been thinking on this, and I have the following further comments. I think the conversation perhaps needs to be a bit deeper than "finalising", though this is all your choice. Feel free to take this along as thoughts, if there is anything useful.

 

I am assuming you have a short "Statement of Requirements" (1-2 page) that you will take along, and that you have used as the basis for your designs. If it is in your head rather than on the page, then it would be a good idea to have it written down - as that will help the architect get a grasp quickly of what you want. And save you both time, and hopefully you some money through using them efficiently.

 

Can you find an architect who is a wheelchair user, if that would be beneficial?

 

I think you may find that an architect asks more searching questions than finalising, but a second perspective is probably useful. Personally I would recommend going to see the architect in your wheelchair if you have the option, just to make the point as to how important that is and so you know they are aware of the size of your chair (just in case it doesn't fit well later). My mum was in a chair and  it worked in our downstairs bathroom as she (4'10", 7st) and the chair (16" width) were both diminutive - but the bathroom would be too small for me in a chair. Don't let that happen. You need your design to work for a possible electric wheelchair, which are larger as we all know.

 

Further comments:

 

I don't think any of your bathrooms meet regs for an unencumbered wheelchair turning space (though I believe only one must), and that the doors will perhaps need to open into the corridor to create that space (and in case someone falls against the inside of the door and wedges it shut which is a Health and Safety risk). To my eye that would then need a bathroom redesign, and put a question over your door arrangement in the lobby, and may open a can of worms.

 

I think you will get better feedback from your architect than I will give here, but let me mention a few of points:

 

Will a huge 6m deep lounge-kitchen work there for daylight? You have one relatively small North window above the settee and a glass door at the end of a long corridor. Is that enough? (Think skylights or more windows, perhaps).

 

Where will you eat? I wondered about a flip over snooker-dining table, but if it is your getting-elderly dad and you who can do things out of your wheelchair (but quite limited) i do not see that being practical. Is sofa and bedroom suite eating enough? I have had my frail mum living with me for the last few years and meal times have been an important time for social interaction.

 

Is that linear kitchen well designed for someone in a wheelchair or who prefers to keep distances short? Might not an alcove or corner or peninsula plan be better, where you can reach all the key things by spinning on the spot (or having eg a perching stool), or taking a single step? Perhaps with a 720mm high breakfast bar as a separator from the room.

 

If you plan to spend time in your bedroom-suites, then I might want them longer and narrower, to allow "zoning" - ie sleeping, sitting, studying / working. To me the square plan feels like a big bedroom, rather than a small studio suite, and has a feel of "always walking round the bed". If you have a space budget of say 19sqm, I might suggest 6m x 3.2m or 5.4m x 3.6m rather than nearly square. It would also make it more usable by others should you ever move out - 6m x 3.2m would make a double and a single, or a nice work-from-home space or second reception.

 

Personally I am not convinced that bedrooms (or guest bedrooms) should be directly off a living area. Do you really need 2 guest bedrooms rather than one, given the beds have study / work spaces?

 

If you want to keep the external corridor (which clearly you do), the other option to taking it away or covering it, is to make it wider and create a south facing suntrap courtyard garden. That would let your living area get sunlight, and let you have longer narrower bed-suites should you wish. It would only need to be about 3.5-4m wide so could just about squeeze into the existing footprint, thouugh an extra 1-1.5m would help.. Then you can have a separate roof on each side rather than a complex cut structure or cover for the corridor. You and your dad get your own "bedroom wing" in a classic South facing C-Plan. 

 

You also get a second socialising space in summer, and for all weathers if you add a say 2m awning / veranda / open porch. Would also keep summer sun out but allow low winter sun in.

 

The pic below is a compact 3 bed bungalow on this plan that my dad designed way back (1970) following this approx. pattern. Here one arm of the C is bedrooms, and the other a car port and entrance,  but it clearly works as a design as the business lady who commissioned in her 40s it is still there in her 90s now - and has happily lived there with 3 husbands and now as a widow. I tease  her that she is one husband off being the new (*) Bess of Hardwick. It is smaller than your plan - I think each wing is about 4.5m wide, as is the patio garden, so I believe the living space is about 20% smaller than your area.

 

(For comparison the road on the left will be 5 or 5.5m wide between kerbs.)

ATB

 

Ferdinand

 

Edited February 23, 2020 by Ferdinand