Looking for advice: Log Cabin "Caravan" build Scotland

[morkus]

Hi everyone,

I have plans to build a log cabin on my croft land and I'm looking for some advice. Hopefully one of you can help me out ! 

 

• If I were to build a "caravan" (log cabin) on croft land to serve as a holiday let/self catering accommodation, do I need planning permission for this ?
• Is it possible for me to build the caravan without planning permission and then apply for change of use to a holiday let ?
• Would I need a building warrant for a drainage connection and if so how do I go about getting one ?

 

My local council is the Highland Council. I've tried my best to find these things out without contacting planning etc but no luck.  Any advice would be much appreciated, thanks !

[Crofter]

5 minutes ago, morkus said:

Hi everyone,

I have plans to build a log cabin on my croft land and I'm looking for some advice. Hopefully one of you can help me out ! 

 

• If I were to build a "caravan" (log cabin) on croft land to serve as a holiday let/self catering accommodation, do I need planning permission for this ?

Yes. Any building that is going to be used for some form of accommodation requires planning permission. You technically need PP to have people staying in a caravan parked on your driveway, although it would hard to enforce this if it wasn't obvious to passers by.

 

 

5 minutes ago, morkus said:

• Is it possible for me to build the caravan without planning permission and then apply for change of use to a holiday let ?

You *may* be able to site a touring caravan without PP, it depends to some extent on whether your neighbours are likely to shop you. But you'd need PP for a static caravan or any kind of more substantial structure even if it falls within the 'portable building' definition.

When I built, I just called it a 'dwelling' and had no restrictions imposed about how it was to be used. If you specifically say it's going to be a holiday let, you may be bound by that and be unable to use it for anything else.

 

5 minutes ago, morkus said:

• Would I need a building warrant for a drainage connection and if so how do I go about getting one ?

Yes, any type of sewerage connection/treatment requires a warrant. I found my local building inspector fairly easy to deal with (I'm Highland too).

 

[Crofter]

By the way, another thought on the 'log cabin' & 'portable building' thing: IMHO I don't think a traditional log cabin really lends itself all that well to portability. They are designed to be build in-situ, and not to be moved. Obviously it's possible to prefabricate whole walls etc, but even this way of doing it doesn't count as 'portable'. The only thing that makes log cabins in any way inherently suited to portability is that they tend to be small and do not have any masonry/concrete work in them.

A far easier method would be to build a more conventional timber frame, or to use SIPS, which will create a big strong box. I think this would provide better value for money and almost certainly better thermal performance. You could still use timber cladding to create a log cabin look on the outside.

 

Where log cabins do match up well is with 'hutting'. A hut can be assembled on site, they just have to be made of 'low impact materials' and be capable of being removed leaving little alteration to the site. Huts are another potential way to approach PP/BC in a different way, with advantages and disadvantages.

[morkus]

29 minutes ago, Crofter said:

Yes. Any building that is going to be used for some form of accommodation requires planning permission. You technically need PP to have people staying in a caravan parked on your driveway, although it would hard to enforce this if it wasn't obvious to passers by.

Okay thank you very much for the quick response, I'm new to this kind of thing so getting the information has been a bit of a task for me. With regards to the "log cabin" it's not really a traditional log cabin I forgot to mention it is a prefabricated building so I'm just assembling rather than building I suppose !

 

What was your experience with planning permission like ? Can you apply online or do you have to go into the council office ? Also how long was the wait & cost of fees etc ?  

 

 

[Crofter]

29 minutes ago, morkus said:

Okay thank you very much for the quick response, I'm new to this kind of thing so getting the information has been a bit of a task for me. With regards to the "log cabin" it's not really a traditional log cabin I forgot to mention it is a prefabricated building so I'm just assembling rather than building I suppose !

 

What was your experience with planning permission like ? Can you apply online or do you have to go into the council office ? Also how long was the wait & cost of fees etc ?  

 

 

 

Just remember that to be deemed 'portable' the prefabrication can only go as far as two separate pieces. So even something like a garden shed may not comply, because it cannot be moved intact without taking it apart. Caravans, park homes, shipping containers etc are all fine. Anything that arrives flat-packed isn't, unless the finished building is itself sturdy enough to stand being moved. But you dont' have to have it arrive in one big piece, you can build on site so long as you can show that the finished building is movable.

 

I had no problems with planning, nobody lodged an objection. Small and restrained design is preferable to big and fancy.

You can do everything online, although from memory I may have made a few phone calls too. I didn't actually meet anybody in person. I went through 'pre application advice' which at the time was free- I think they charge about £125 now. This gives you a non binding statement on the likelihood of your proposal being accepted. I then went for full planning, which requires drawings of the site, each elevation, and a floor plan. You also have to detail how you plan your road access. There is a standard to which you must adhere, with certain prescribed dimensions and radii.

I think I waited about six weeks for a decision.

 

You can also apply for planning in principle, but this is only really worth doing when you are selling a plot and want to leave the final design open for the buyer.

 

One final point- not everybody is aware of the distinction between planning permission and building control. Planning is concerned with what something looks like and its intended usage (they will consider impact on local roads, schools, etc, so need to know likely number of occupants). They don't really care about details of how it's constructed.

Building control, if applicable, will go in to the details of the structure and the regulations around disabled access, energy efficiency, etc. But they don't really speak to planning. So something can be exempt from one set of controls and not the other.

[A_L]

@morkus As far as I understand it is necessary to get PP but you can avoid building regulations for 'portable buildings'.

 

have a look at the Caravans Act, under the latest update it is possible in England, Wales (N.I.?) to build a mobile home of up to 136 sq metres with only planning permission for a 'Caravan'. In Scotland it is about 107 sq metres

Here is a Scottish link but the others are very similar https://www.highland.gov.uk/downloads/file/1346/bst_018_caravans_and_mobile_homes

and here is a more commercial link http://www.newforestlogcabins.co.uk/page45.html

 

just to emphasise, mobile home definition is basically a building which can be split into two parts which (in theory) can then be put on the back of two lorries, it does not even have to be possible for the lorries to get to the specific site or to have originally delivered the building.

Edited February 5, 2020 by A_L

[ProDave]

Here is Highland Councils definition of a "caravan"  https://www.highland.gov.uk/downloads/file/1346/bst_018_caravans_and_mobile_homes

 

Didn't someone on here look into "log cabin caravans" ang got agreement from BC that they complied?

[morkus]

@Crofter I reckon the cabin I am after is able to be moved 

25 minutes ago, Crofter said:

Just remember that to be deemed 'portable' the prefabrication can only go as far as two separate pieces. So even something like a garden shed may not comply, because it cannot be moved intact without taking it apart. Caravans, park homes, shipping containers etc are all fine. Anything that arrives flat-packed isn't, unless the finished building is itself sturdy enough to stand being moved. But you dont' have to have it arrive in one big piece, you can build on site so long as you can show that the finished building is movable.

I reckon the cabin I am after is sturdy enough to be moved so should be all good there.

 

27 minutes ago, Crofter said:

I went through 'pre application advice' which at the time was free- I think they charge about £125 now.

I think it may just be worth my while to go for full planning straight away in this case. I'll need to get help from someone with all the drawings etc though.. 

 

29 minutes ago, Crofter said:

One final point- not everybody is aware of the distinction between planning permission and building control. Planning is concerned with what something looks like and its intended usage (they will consider impact on local roads, schools, etc, so need to know likely number of occupants). They don't really care about details of how it's constructed.

Building control, if applicable, will go in to the details of the structure and the regulations around disabled access, energy efficiency, etc. But they don't really speak to planning. So something can be exempt from one set of controls and not the other.

Okay I see so that means if I was to get holiday let planning permission for a caravan, it would be exempt from building control ?

[Stones]

Depending on what you are wanting to do, there is provision under an order made by a Scottish Minister by virtue of Schedule 1, Part 3 - holding of 5 acres of more, subsection 2 of the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960, that reduced the area of land required (from 5 down to 1) and crucially increased the amount of time caravans could be on land, (IIRC 5 or 6 months instead of 28 days) specifically for crofting land, the idea being to allow crofters an additional income stream. Unfortunately, the order isn't held online so you're reliant on the local planning office (or more likely the Planning Control Officer) having a dog eared copy to reference.  I don't have a copy to hand but may be able to locate one next week.

[ProDave]

3 minutes ago, Stones said:

Depending on what you are wanting to do, there is provision under an order made by a Scottish Minister by virtue of Schedule 1, Part 3 - holding of 5 acres of more, subsection 2 of the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960, that reduced the area of land required (from 5 down to 1) and crucially increased the amount of time caravans could be on land, (IIRC 5 or 6 months instead of 28 days) specifically for crofting land, the idea being to allow crofters an additional income stream. Unfortunately, the order isn't held online so you're reliant on the local planning office (or more likely the Planning Control Officer) having a dog eared copy to reference.  I don't have a copy to hand but may be able to locate one next week.

Isn't that the order that generally makes  a presumption in favour of PP for up to 3 caravans on a croft?

[Crofter]

24 minutes ago, morkus said:

I reckon the cabin I am after is sturdy enough to be moved so should be all good there.

The main thing is probably the floor construction, and how it all attaches to the ground. Do you have a link to the sort of thing you are considering?

 

24 minutes ago, morkus said:

 

I think it may just be worth my while to go for full planning straight away in this case. I'll need to get help from someone with all the drawings etc though.. 

 

Okay I see so that means if I was to get holiday let planning permission for a caravan, it would be exempt from building control ?

I did all my own drawings, it wasn't difficult. I just did it with paper and pencil, rather than learn how to use a CAD package. But if you're buying a prefab kit of some sort, the supplier will likely have drawings already that you can use. The site plan was the most difficult, as that requires that you do a bit of basic surveying with a level and a tape measure.

 

You're correct that a caravan could get PP for a holiday let and be exempt from BC. You will still need to get a warrant for your drainage arrangements.

 

[Stones]

15 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Isn't that the order that generally makes  a presumption in favour of PP for up to 3 caravans on a croft?

 

It may well do, but  Schedule 1 of The Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) (Scotland) Order 1992 / Schedule 2 of The Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) Order 1995 both refer to paragraphs 2 - 10 of the First Schedule of the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960, which details the permitted use of land as a caravan site where a caravan site licence is not required (to obtain a caravan site licence, you require planning permission). The specific order that I'm referring to has the effect of allowing up to 3 caravans on crofting grounds on terms far more generous than the Act normally allows.  No PP required.  The catch however, is that the caravans would have to be removed from the land after the 5 or 6 month period (I can't quite remember if it specifies dates between or number of months).

 

On a related note, Scottish Government appears to be consulting on amending the definition of a caravan (increase the size):

 

https://www.gov.scot/publications/business-regulatory-impact-assessment-caravan-sites-act-1968-amendment-definition-caravan-scotland-order-2019/ 

 

[morkus]

27 minutes ago, Stones said:

Depending on what you are wanting to do, there is provision under an order made by a Scottish Minister by virtue of Schedule 1, Part 3 - holding of 5 acres of more, subsection 2 of the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960, that reduced the area of land required (from 5 down to 1) and crucially increased the amount of time caravans could be on land, (IIRC 5 or 6 months instead of 28 days) specifically for crofting land, the idea being to allow crofters an additional income stream. Unfortunately, the order isn't held online so you're reliant on the local planning office (or more likely the Planning Control Officer) having a dog eared copy to reference.  I don't have a copy to hand but may be able to locate one next week.

My father was talking about this but I couldn't find anything online to back it up ! He said he is sure he is allowed up to 3 caravans without PP on croft land. I don't think he's aware it's only for 5-6 months though.. 

[Stones]

2 minutes ago, morkus said:

My father was talking about this but I couldn't find anything online to back it up ! He said he is sure he is allowed up to 3 caravans without PP on croft land. I don't think he's aware it's only for 5-6 months though.. 

 

For some reason it does not appear to have been digitised, but it does exist.  

 

[morkus]

22 minutes ago, Crofter said:

The main thing is probably the floor construction, and how it all attaches to the ground. Do you have a link to the sort of thing you are considering?

Here's a link to the one I am thinking of buying. https://www.tuin.co.uk/kay-70mm-log-cabin.html I would add insulation to the floor and roof, possibly underfloor heating too haven't decided yet.

 

24 minutes ago, Crofter said:

But if you're buying a prefab kit of some sort, the supplier will likely have drawings already that you can use. The site plan was the most difficult, as that requires that you do a bit of basic surveying with a level and a tape measure.

Yeah you're right they do have drawings available so that's easy enough. Would just be the site plan I'd get a bit of help with in that case ! 

[ProDave]

22 minutes ago, Stones said:

 

It may well do, but  Schedule 1 of The Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) (Scotland) Order 1992 / Schedule 2 of The Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) Order 1995 both refer to paragraphs 2 - 10 of the First Schedule of the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960, which details the permitted use of land as a caravan site where a caravan site licence is not required (to obtain a caravan site licence, you require planning permission). The specific order that I'm referring to has the effect of allowing up to 3 caravans on crofting grounds on terms far more generous than the Act normally allows.  No PP required.  The catch however, is that the caravans would have to be removed from the land after the 5 or 6 month period (I can't quite remember if it specifies dates between or number of months).

 

On a related note, Scottish Government appears to be consulting on amending the definition of a caravan (increase the size):

 

https://www.gov.scot/publications/business-regulatory-impact-assessment-caravan-sites-act-1968-amendment-definition-caravan-scotland-order-2019/ 

 

I have camped (in a touring caravan) on a croft that allows 3 caravans at a time under that rule.

[Thedreamer]

Hopefully your croft is well sheltered. I would be concerned how well it would stand up in the Highlands.

 

 

  

[ProDave]

14 minutes ago, morkus said:

Here's a link to the one I am thinking of buying. https://www.tuin.co.uk/kay-70mm-log-cabin.html I would add insulation to the floor and roof, possibly underfloor heating too haven't decided yet.

 

 

I doubt it that directly qualifies as a "caravan"  I doubt it is built to be lifted in one piece without falling apart.  However I am fairly certain you could make it so by placing it onto a base that was designed with lifting points to allow the whole thing to be lifted in one go by a crane.

[Crofter]

14 minutes ago, morkus said:

Here's a link to the one I am thinking of buying. https://www.tuin.co.uk/kay-70mm-log-cabin.html I would add insulation to the floor and roof, possibly underfloor heating too haven't decided yet.

 

Yeah you're right they do have drawings available so that's easy enough. Would just be the site plan I'd get a bit of help with in that case ! 

 

I notice some of the photos show it sitting on a concrete raft. That's definitely a worry if you're trying to claim that the whole thing can be lifted up without leaving the floor behind.

I would ask the company for more details on how the floor is supported. It certainly doesn't look as though the floor joists are a single span without intermediate supports, as would be needed for a portable building.

To give you one example, my wee house has a floor span of 4.8m (the log cabin in your link is just shy of 6m) and I had to use 300mm deep engineered I-beam joists in order to make the span without intermediate supports. This was fine because I wanted a lot of insulation in the floor anywhere. But there is noticeable bounce in the floor, despite me following the guidance of the joist manufacturers.

 

Looking at the drawings on the link, the joist span is likely around 5610mm. On the JJI interactive span caulcuator (https://www.jamesjones.co.uk/products-and-services/engineered-timber/interactive-span-table) this gives a minimum joist depth of 245mm, and this is only possible if you have them a foot apart, which is a bit extreme. Going for a more conventional spacing of 18", your joists have to be 350mm deep. That's a pretty major modification to the kit, as there's no way the existing floor structure is anything like that deep.

 

[ProDave]

10 minutes ago, Crofter said:

 

Looking at the drawings on the link, the joist span is likely around 5610mm. On the JJI interactive span caulcuator (https://www.jamesjones.co.uk/products-and-services/engineered-timber/interactive-span-table) this gives a minimum joist depth of 245mm, and this is only possible if you have them a foot apart, which is a bit extreme. Going for a more conventional spacing of 18", your joists have to be 350mm deep. That's a pretty major modification to the kit, as there's no way the existing floor structure is anything like that deep.

 

And if the design of that cabin puts internal walls within that span, that are helping tp support the roof then that puts extra load on the floor joists to take account of.

 

 

[morkus]

9 minutes ago, Crofter said:

 

I notice some of the photos show it sitting on a concrete raft. That's definitely a worry if you're trying to claim that the whole thing can be lifted up without leaving the floor behind.

I would ask the company for more details on how the floor is supported. It certainly doesn't look as though the floor joists are a single span without intermediate supports, as would be needed for a portable building.

To give you one example, my wee house has a floor span of 4.8m (the log cabin in your link is just shy of 6m) and I had to use 300mm deep engineered I-beam joists in order to make the span without intermediate supports. This was fine because I wanted a lot of insulation in the floor anywhere. But there is noticeable bounce in the floor, despite me following the guidance of the joist manufacturers.

 

Looking at the drawings on the link, the joist span is likely around 5610mm. On the JJI interactive span caulcuator (https://www.jamesjones.co.uk/products-and-services/engineered-timber/interactive-span-table) this gives a minimum joist depth of 245mm, and this is only possible if you have them a foot apart, which is a bit extreme. Going for a more conventional spacing of 18", your joists have to be 350mm deep. That's a pretty major modification to the kit, as there's no way the existing floor structure is anything like that deep.

 

Do you think it would be best to scrap the planning permission for a "caravan" idea ? Or would I have to worry about building regulations etc if I was to go down that route.. For me I think buying one of these prefab cabins is the best option considering my budget and I don't want to spend a lot of time building my own. 

[Crofter]

Bear in mind you don't really have to tie yourself down to "planning permission for a caravan".

Get planning permission for a small 2 bedroom house if that's what you want to build. That leaves all your options open. I never told the planners how I was going to build my house, or whether it was going to need a building warrant, and they never asked me because that's not their remit.

 

The only advantage of going with a portable building (i.e. caravan) is the building regs exemption. This saves you a set of drawings, an application fee, and some oversight from building control who will want to check up on you at various stages. It also allows you to depart from rules on disables access, restrictions on layout, fire escape, energy efficiency, etc, although IMHO most of these rules are there for a very good reason.

 

If buying a prefab kit, you may well find that the manufacturer will supply building warrant drawings at little or no extra cost, which takes away one of the main reasons for trying to go building regs exempt.

[iSelfBuild]

On 05/02/2020 at 21:17, morkus said:

Do you think it would be best to scrap the planning permission for a "caravan" idea ? Or would I have to worry about building regulations etc if I was to go down that route.. For me I think buying one of these prefab cabins is the best option considering my budget and I don't want to spend a lot of time building my own. 

 

Feel free to drop me a message to set up a phone call. Happy to answer your questions, the cabin you have linked to does not comply with the caravan act. The vast majority that market their cabins as 'caravans' are none compliant and if investigated would get enforcement notices to remove off site. 

 

I have designed my cabin fully compliant with the caravan act, we have 2 identical cabins being installed this Summer and 6 further projects booked in for 2021 so far. Bit of background on my experience here:

 

 

[morkus]

2 hours ago, iSelfBuild said:

Feel free to drop me a message to set up a phone call. Happy to answer your questions, the cabin you have linked to does not comply with the caravan act. The vast majority that market their cabins as 'caravans' are none compliant and if investigated would get enforcement notices to remove off site. 

In what way does it not comply with the caravan act ? Let's say I was able to make it so it can be lifted. Is there anything else preventing it from being a "caravan" ?

 

 

2 hours ago, iSelfBuild said:

I have designed my cabin fully compliant with the caravan act, we have 2 identical cabins being installed this Summer and 6 further projects booked in for 2021 so far. Bit of background on my experience here:

 

This is something I may be interested in, what kind of price would this be ?

[Stewpot]

I've been reading (or trying to) the caravan acts for a couple of days[1]; this webpage sums up the definition of a caravan as well as anything I've read, with a look at case law, as well:

 

http://selfbuildtimberframe.com/news-the-legal-definition-of-a-caravan-mobile-home-draft-1/

 

[1] Find them here:-

Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Eliz2/8-9/62

Caravan Sites Act 1968: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/52