Zoot's Extention- GO!

[zoothorn]

1 minute ago, PeterW said:

So now the structure is up - what is the exact height from slab to bottom of the floor joists above .??

 

Does the slab include whatever is to be inserted for insulation & screed? if so I cannot answer yet.

 

As it is.. its 2150mm.

[PeterW]

Surface to surface you have 2150..?

 

OK not that shabby then - take off 15mm for plasterboard as this will probably be treated as a “garage” so needs to be fire lined.

 

For me, I would be going back to using 25mm of PIR on the floor followed by 22mm of chipboard - wood is warmer under foot than concrete and this is a workshop and you won’t damage tools as much if you drop them on the concrete ..!

 

that leaves you 2085mm all bar the fighting. That’s shy of 110mm less than a standard developer house ceiling at 2195mm so is fine in my book. 

[zoothorn]

2 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Surface to surface you have 2150..?

 

OK not that shabby then - take off 15mm for plasterboard as this will probably be treated as a “garage” so needs to be fire lined.

 

For me, I would be going back to using 25mm of PIR on the floor followed by 22mm of chipboard - wood is warmer under foot than concrete and this is a workshop and you won’t damage tools as much if you drop them on the concrete ..!

 

that leaves you 2085mm all bar the fighting. That’s shy of 110mm less than a standard developer house ceiling at 2195mm so is fine in my book. 

 

I'm not sure this will be treated as a garage.. not quite on board there. When I spoke to my BCO 6 months ago asking if I can go as low as 2m H  (yes) he asked what room for & I umm'd & eerr'd said diy room/ workshop.. he replied "make sure it has insulation in walls". He seemed only to stipulate the walls not floor -I will check of course, as will my builder monday if floor needs any/ what min if so.

 

Wood on floor tho is a fire risk, if I'm using friction/ routers Peter is my thinking. I'm very surprised its allowed at all tbh.

 

Could you have a look at my roof trusses/ this pressing issue? tbh the H of lower room is fixed & last job to fit xyz on slab: right now I have a sudden panic on as its just dawned on me today (now chaps dug trusses out I can see clearly) they're possibly simply not correct, & the whole ~300mm bizarre H issue I can -at last- see is due to the placement of the truss cross member.

 

Thanks- zoot.

[PeterW]

Just now, zoothorn said:

Wood on floor tho is a fire risk, if I'm using friction/ routers Peter is my thinking. I'm very surprised its allowed at all tbh.

 

Errr ... nothing in any regulations to stop you ..?

Even in commercial regs ..! Not welding are you ..??

 

1 minute ago, zoothorn said:

Could you have a look at my roof trusses/ this pressing issue?

Its a collar truss, as I said. 
 

but again, with no picture of the walls or dimensions, not sure what I can add ..??? 
 

What is the height of the new walls from the wooden floor to the top of the panels ..?

 

[zoothorn]

Just now, PeterW said:

Errr ... nothing in any regulations to stop you ..?

Even in commercial regs ..! Not welding are you ..??

 

Its a collar truss, as I said. 
 

but again, with no picture of the walls or dimensions, not sure what I can add ..??? 
 

What is the height of the new walls from the wooden floor to the top of the panels ..?

 

 

Ok I will cross this bridge later/ will think of chipboard, but I'm much more likely to go 22 screed (if I can). Last job.

 

Upper room walls: LHS its 2100mm, RHS side (window) 2300mm.

 

Sorry I didn't know you replied re. my truss. But in the clip from declan52, both distinguishing eg's normal/ collared have a cross beam. You can't call the normal ceiling 'collared' just bc it has a cross beam, so something else has to determine what a collared ceiling is (if i can, I might have the argument I need @ my builder 'it will not be a collared ceiling as we discussed & as on the plan').

 

My trusses look like the very eg, showing what a 'normal' roof's trusses are like.. the same profile. Would you agree?

[Big Jimbo]

I would call those raised tie trusses. They have been designed as raised tie in order to give you extra headroom in the room above what a standard truss would give you. If you nip up there and measure from the waterproof (for 65 days) flooring to the top of the wood walls they have put up, i can give you an idea of how high the ceiling will be in that room and put your mind at rest,

[PeterW]

13 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

might have the argument I need @ my builder 'it will not be a collared ceiling as we discussed & as on the plan').

@zoothorn that is a collared truss ..!!! Not sure which bit of this you aren’t getting ..!!

 

Looking at that picture, you’re going to get somewhere around 2300mm ceiling height, with a flat ceiling plus a small slope on the side with the birds mouth cut out. 
 

It is definitely not a standard truss - those timbers are much larger than a standard truss and it’s not usual to have that sort of depth on anything “normal”. 
 

15 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

but I'm much more likely to go 22 screed (if I can).

You can’t, so don’t bother thinking about it. There is no screed strong enough to go that thin, it will crack and break up in weeks. 

[Mr Punter]

And you can scrap any plans to set up the Scalextric in the new loft.

[PeterW]

21 minutes ago, Big Jimbo said:

I would call those raised tie trusses.

same thing, different terminology. 
 

collar tie, raised tie, collar truss, coller frame, collar beam... all mean the same thing. 

[zoothorn]

2 hours ago, Big Jimbo said:

I would call those raised tie trusses. They have been designed as raised tie in order to give you extra headroom in the room above what a standard truss would give you. If you nip up there and measure from the waterproof (for 65 days) flooring to the top of the wood walls they have put up, i can give you an idea of how high the ceiling will be in that room and put your mind at rest,

 

hi BigJ- ok I understand they are raised tie trusses. My plan clearly shows what the design is to give extra headroom, I have discussed with my builder this design/ we agreed. Ok so I expect 20cm+ onto what I measure my wall heights to be. Ok on -LHS side- this is true, because of the nature of the shorter wall realtive to the RHS wall. The collar idea works here.

 

But not on the RHS side. This is my point chaps.

 

If you look on my plan, the top room walls are different heights. So, simply LHS "ceiling slope to give me extra headroom" is longer than RHS one. But in actuality I do not seem to have -any- "ceiling slope" RHS side at all from measuring it, which means.. the RHS wall height = the ceiling height. It shouldn't be. I should have +20cm here & +40cm on the LHS because wall's lower. The plan concurrs with this precisely.

 

I went onto to argue, can this be called a collared roof then? This was my minor point: IE at what stage does a normal roof with a cross beam become a collared roof with a cross beam? I wasn't asking "what is a collared roof" from a totally naiive pov, having discussed the design many times over last 6 months with my builder!

 

This missing 20cm.. is close enough to the mystery +350mm the whole thing's been made lower into the ground, for me to -finally- concusively know the reason [20cm of 35cm so the whole ammount is still not accounted for tho, irritatingly].

 

Can anyone see what I mean?

 

 

Edited November 2, 2019 by zoothorn

[jamiehamy]

Your plan shows nothing precisely. Post it again tho as I can't see it on this thread. 

[zoothorn]

42 minutes ago, jamiehamy said:

Your plan shows nothing precisely. Post it again tho as I can't see it on this thread. 

 

My plan shows all lines, to scale, very precisely.

 

Plan: Top room ceiling: there are two slopes either side. LHS one's bigger cos wall below's shorter. The collared roof plan.

 

Build (but roof yet on): There's one slope only. Why? because in my opinion -& I'm trying desperately to explain, & by god if someone might understand.. let alone agree- the cross beam's 20cm lower than it should be, & sits upon the wall RHS/ no ceiling slope.

 

So I miss out on 20cm H.

 

So the connecting door & frame between the room upstairs.. is buggered/ too low one side vs the existing other. I spent months on this!! so you'll bang your head on the new connecting door frame & have to DUCK to enter from master bedroom. The new ceiling is 1860mm above the floor of the master bedroom, IF this roof is put on. If this damn cross beam was up 20cm.. this figure would be 2060mm.. perfect.

 

I think he just forgot the extra slope bit RHS.. & the whole extention's 20+cm down as a result, scratched his head & just assumed it zoot's plan's mistake (like you do- wrongly) & cracked on regardless "so what if its all 20cm down" (which chimes with his "all fine" attitude) until I saw him friday for 1st time looking concerned when we went critically-measuring the connecting door & finding only 3cm to spare when it should be 23cm. Concerned face on then.

 

All I'm doing is asking if I'm wrong. I'm happy to be proved wrong & the collared ceiling will happen.. but I cannot see it being anything other than a normal ceiling until proved otherwise, devoid of its collared-roof design.

 

Please help me out here, not just snipe at me- thanks.

 

 

Edited November 2, 2019 by zoothorn

[zoothorn]

45 minutes ago, jamiehamy said:

Your plan shows nothing precisely. Post it again tho as I can't see it on this thread. 

 

What just for you to snipe at me for this relentless H mistake as somehow being my fault.. or actually try & help with the collared connundrum I have (which I now believe tho happy to be proved wrong to be the very cause of ALL the height issues I've had so far from day 1)..

[jamiehamy]

4 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

 

What just for you to snipe at me for this relentless H mistake as somehow being my fault.. or actually try & help with the collared connundrum I have (which I now believe tho happy to be proved wrong to be the very cause of ALL the height issues I've had so far from day 1)..

Okay - yes, it comes across as sniping. But I've pointed out before that your drawings are not sufficient. This drawing fails to show anything 'precisely' - and this is one of the key issues you are facing. It's hard to offer advice because there is no baseline against which to measure. Had you proper drawings, then you would simply compare the drawing against the actual and work out the issue. 

 

To answer your question directly - no one can tell you if you are wrong or right because it's entirely subjective. And again - why are you not asking the builder!? 

 

I have read this post a few times and can't really work out what the problem is and since there are no proper drawings (you could be doing new ones as you go) then it's almost impossible to offer anything helpful. 

 

Why don't you produce a set of drawings 'as is' with actuals now? Shouldn't take too long. 

[zoothorn]

29 minutes ago, jamiehamy said:

Okay - yes, it comes across as sniping. But I've pointed out before that your drawings are not sufficient. This drawing fails to show anything 'precisely' - and this is one of the key issues you are facing. It's hard to offer advice because there is no baseline against which to measure. Had you proper drawings, then you would simply compare the drawing against the actual and work out the issue. 

 

To answer your question directly - no one can tell you if you are wrong or right because it's entirely subjective. And again - why are you not asking the builder!? 

 

I have read this post a few times and can't really work out what the problem is and since there are no proper drawings (you could be doing new ones as you go) then it's almost impossible to offer anything helpful. 

 

Why don't you produce a set of drawings 'as is' with actuals now? Shouldn't take too long. 

 

Jamie, a collared ceiling is shown. Above the top room door facing us. You cannot say this is not there purely by using the excuse 'nothing is precise'. Its shown, its drawn, you can see it, its there.  Above the 1100mm window on other side.. is the other angled ceiling section: smaller.

 

Can you see these two angled ceiling lines?

[Big Jimbo]

3 hours ago, PeterW said:

same thing, different terminology. 
 

collar tie, raised tie, collar truss, coller frame, collar beam... all mean the same thing. 

I wonder is that a regional thing ? I only ask because i have only ever known a truss like that as a "raised Tie"

[Big Jimbo]

Your roof trusses look fine. They look like they will give you something close to your drawing. A longer slope on the left from the top of your wall to the ceiling, and a shorter one on the right. Your riased tie will give you the increased ceiling height you require. Happy days

[Big Jimbo]

You can now relax, and ogle the Blond Russian fit one on Strictly that was dancing with David James, and crack a beer. Enjoy

[zoothorn]

3 minutes ago, Big Jimbo said:

I wonder is that a regional thing ? I only ask because i have only ever known a truss like that as a "raised Tie"

 BigJ-  please help me out here. Can we just forget the terminology.. I have an urgency to this Q. I need to establish if this roof is as I've specified, or not.

 

Can you see the two angled ceiling sections, in the upper room, at the sides in my drawing above? 30* angles. One is longer than other.

 

One is above the door facing us (@ its top LHS). The other is above the 1100mm window (@ its top RHS).

 

Please can you say if you know what I'm referring to?

[zoothorn]

20 minutes ago, Big Jimbo said:

Your roof trusses look fine. They look like they will give you something close to your drawing. A longer slope on the left from the top of your wall to the ceiling, and a shorter one on the right. Your riased tie will give you the increased ceiling height you require. Happy days

 

FANTASTIC! you are on board with me. Please just stay & help me out. I promise it won't take long.

 

I cannot agree the raised tie will give me any added height at all. I will hopefully show you why I think this.

 

When I physically measure across this horizontal cross beam from the notch > to the junction of the cross beam & the big outer 30* angled wood section.. I get 4200mm.

 

Now, this is the exact dim of the outer wall > across > to outer wall.

 

So, this implies the RHS of the cross beam will sit upon the wall top at this juncture, not be raised above it/ no small ceiling corner slope. No gain in height. It doesn't tally with the plan, which has this ceiling line across (the cross beam line) raised above this juncture, raised above the top of the wall.

 

Can you say whether you understand to what I am referring to?

Edited November 2, 2019 by zoothorn

[zoothorn]

You need to imagine the truss in the photo the other way round (too heavy to move).. perhaps that helps me explain my predicament here.

 

Can anyone help?

[Tennentslager]

I think I do.

your truss plan is a unique shape

the pic of the on site truss is symmetrical 

both are not the same 

if the walls are staggered on site (I suspect they are not!) then this try’s will mean a sloping ceiling 

but the walls on site will be plumb and level so the outcome might be slightly different, in that, the verge of existing build will be ever do slightly out of parallel with the verge of the extension 

BTW

this stuff is murder to explain using words that’s why everyone wants photos or updated plans of what’s on site

good luck Zoot 

[Big Jimbo]

You are now making me miss the fit Russian Blond. A raised tie will give you a raised ceiling. You are going to walk out through the door from your existing first floor, and you are going to have a wall to your right which will rise from the floor you are standing on. at the top of that wall, you are going to have a slope rising towards you untill it meets the ceiling above your head. On the other side you will have the same, but the slope will be shorter, because your wall on that side is taller. The ceiling above your head, will be level from one side to the other. Stop trying to find problems where they arn't any. Relax, and enjoy the blond.

[PeterW]

Yes but until you give the exact dimensions of the walls, which you said were 2300 earlier, then I don’t see an issue !!!

 

The builder has already said  he will put a step or two inside the wall - given the wall is about 450mm thick, again, this is a really good and neat solution, so again I don’t see an issue !!!

 

4 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

You need to imagine the truss in the photo the other way round (too heavy to move).. perhaps that helps me explain my predicament here.

 

Can anyone help?

There is no predicament. You have a ceiling height of around 2300mm above the current grey Egger floor. 
 

You need 2020mm for a standard height door frame. 

 

You have an excess of 280mm ....

 

Two steps down, through the wall, really tidy solution ... 

 

Now please, beer and strictly ... 

 

 

[PeterW]

4 minutes ago, Tennentslager said:

if the walls are staggered on site (I suspect they are not!) then this try’s will mean a sloping ceiling 

They are ... left is 200 below the right ... so the collar will be parallel ...