PHPP

[Russdl]

Many thanks so far.

 

Perhaps I should have added a bit more clarity and detail.

 

Once again, this is the same floor plan (with walls and windows now visible), it's the windows highlighted in blue that I'm after the 'DEVIATION FROM NORTH' for.

 

The second image is a 'help' screen from the PHPP package explaining how to work it out.

 

 

[Ferdinand]

Are you sure one of you isn't talking about the face of the wall angle and the other the light direction?

 

Add. Reading your last post I make the light beam perp to the window as about 7:00 on a clock, which is ... umm ... umm ... 210 degrees.

 

F

[jack]

In that case, I make it about 210 degrees.

[Russdl]

Thanks again, I shouldn't have been so vague in my first post but I was trying not to lead the jury.

[PeterW]

Yep that makes three of us ..!! 210 degrees based on that description 

[craig]

Frankly, PHPP should be the standard on how efficient a house is.

 

It's not expensive for what is (an excel spreadsheet). However, it is only as accurate as the information that is put into it. Has had changed over the years and got more accurate every year (head and shoulders above SAP imho).

 

I know of several certifiers, we used to help Strathclyde university with courses.

 

It's not easy to become a certified certifier but experience certainly counts.

[Jeremy Harris]

I've never really understood why anyone would want PH certification, other than bragging rights.  It adds no value (in fact, our valuer told it devalued the house) and adds at least £1.5k to a house built to the same, or better, standard but without certification.  Our new build exceeds the PH performance standard, but I really couldn't justify certification - I'd rather spend the money on making the house more energy efficient.

 

It's not at all hard to self build to passive standards, and doesn't need to cost more than just self-building to a poorer standard, it's mainly about details, in my experience.

Edited June 27, 2017 by JSHarris

[craig]

It does add value, it's just not a common standard in the UK, and therefore not fully understood to add value. In Germany, houses can be sold of plans simply because they are built/designed/certified to PH standards and retain the value.

 

I would question a valuers understanding of PH. 

 

I agree certification is a luxury, we just certified the first straw bale hybrid PH in Yorkshire area.

 

What certification does is let's owners and future potential owners know, that the house performs exactly as is claimed.

 

Once the standard is more common and more understood, it will add value and it will retain values.

[Jeremy Harris]

It does not add value at all, other than as a reassurance to the original builder, perhaps.  Our valuer devalued our house on the basis that it was, in his words, an eco house with limited market appeal.  When challenged by me, he then said that it was a good thing we weren't opting to have the house PH certified, as, in his view, that would reduce the value by a further 5%............

[PeterW]

21 minutes ago, craig said:

 

It does add value, it's just not a common standard in the UK, and therefore not fully understood to add value. 

 

 

3 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

 

It does not add value at all, other than as a reassurance to the original builder, perhaps

 

 

I think the key words missing in both of these are ...

 

In the UK mainstream housing market..!

 

UK buyers still don't understand EPC never mind something as complex as a passiv(e) house standard. I would be intrigued to see if RICS have issued any guidance on this as they are the ones suppressing the values. 

 

[craig]

There in lies the problem.

 

Eco houses is just a buzz word, they are designed to be energy efficient and that's the common misconception with those with less knowledge/ understanding. The fact your valuer tried to devalue the house because of the standard that was achieved and would have devalued it further if it was certified, is laughable to be honest. 

[craig]

1 minute ago, PeterW said:

 

 

I think the key words missing in both of these are ...

 

In the UK mainstream housing market..!

 

UK buyers still don't understand EPC never mind something as complex as a passiv(e) house standard. I would be intrigued to see if RICS have issued any guidance on this as they are the ones suppressing the values. 

 

 

I would agree with that sentiment and with the EPC factor.

 

It can add value if you have a good EPC but if it's an ECO house / Passive House it can devalue the property ?

[Jeremy Harris]

4 minutes ago, craig said:

There in lies the problem.

 

Eco houses is just a buzz word, they are designed to be energy efficient and that's the common misconception with those with less knowledge/ understanding. The fact your valuer tried to devalue the house because of the standard that was achieved and would have devalued it further if it was certified, is laughable to be honest. 

 

Not so laughable when it's potentially £30k+ out of your pocket, I can assure you!

Edited June 27, 2017 by JSHarris

[Jeremy Harris]

5 minutes ago, PeterW said:

 

 

I think the key words missing in both of these are ...

 

In the UK mainstream housing market..!

 

UK buyers still don't understand EPC never mind something as complex as a passiv(e) house standard. I would be intrigued to see if RICS have issued any guidance on this as they are the ones suppressing the values. 

 

 

 

The problem is that energy performance, in general, is way down the list of priorities to the vast majority of buyers.  Talk to any estate agent, anywhere, and they will say that the two factors that dominate marketability are location and the kitchen/bathroom bling.  Ours has said that the EPC rating isn't even glanced at by the majority of buyers, they simply aren't really interested in it.

[craig]

11 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

 

Not so laughable when it's potentially £30k+ out of your pocket, I can assure you!

 

I can certainly understand that, I'm not having pop shot at you but the valuer and the property market in general.

 

The drive towards energy efficiency is huge in the UK. When buyers start to understand the energy cost savings by buying this type of house, I'm sure this will then become more prominent in buyers decision making.

 

Until then, we are stuck with buyers making bad decisions (how does the kitchen look for example) rather than what does the house cost me to run.

Edited June 27, 2017 by craig

[Gone West]

13 hours ago, JSHarris said:

It does not add value at all, other than as a reassurance to the original builder, perhaps.  Our valuer devalued our house on the basis that it was, in his words, an eco house with limited market appeal.  When challenged by me, he then said that it was a good thing we weren't opting to have the house PH certified, as, in his view, that would reduce the value by a further 5%............

I think that says more about your valuer than reality. I would never market my house as an 'Eco House' because it has no meaning. We've had a lot of people look at our house as it has been built, and many have been interested in the PH concept. One couple in particular, the woman was from Germany, were looking to buy a house but were fed up with seeing draughty old houses. They knew about PH and wanted to buy one. Having certification would have been a bonus for them. The PH market is small but the the number for sale is also small. We had our house valued and the valuer added a premium because it was built to PH standards. Don't devalue your house because it is a PH.

[Jeremy Harris]

I agree, Peter, particularly with the PH market being small, and I think that was what the valuer was basing his valuation on.  Being the newest house in the village, with the majority of the other houses being a couple of hundred years old, and the one opposite over a thousand years old (well, bits of it!) doesn't help, either, as people looking in this area may well not be looking to buy a passive standard house.

 

The valuer's point was that the value depends on demand, and that depends to some extent on how many potential buyers may be competing to buy the same type of house.  His view was that not many people in this area would be looking to buy such a house, so it would attract less interest than one that was, say, a couple of hundred years old.

 

To us, the value isn't important, as we have no intention of selling, but it did get my back up a bit when I read the valuation report!

[Russdl]

Thanks for the all the replies.

 

I had a figure of 210 degrees (ballpark'd in exactly the same way as Ferdinand)

 

On 27/06/2017 at 09:22, Ferdinand said:

light beam perp to the window as about 7:00 on a clock, which is ... umm ... umm ... 210 degrees.

 

The figure the consultant has come up with is 60 degrees out and, of course, all the other elevations differ by the same amount compared to what I expected. 

 

I explained to the consultant what I considered to be his error, including copying the 'help' menu from the PHPP (leaving plenty of wriggle room for him to 'cough' to the mistake) but he insisted he was correct and that the measurement should be taken from the window perpendicular, clockwise to north, which of course would be 150 degrees...

 

I won't be using him - I need the book!

 

On the thread creep regarding certification, I'm still undecided if I will or not. I want to use the PHPP to ensure that my new build doesn't overheat as that seems to be the biggest problem for a passive house, so the more I can do to design that risk out the better, hence my desire to use PHPP.

[gravelld]

15 hours ago, JSHarris said:

I've never really understood why anyone would want PH certification, other than bragging rights.  It adds no value (in fact, our valuer told it devalued the house) and adds at least £1.5k to a house built to the same, or better, standard but without certification.  Our new build exceeds the PH performance standard, but I really couldn't justify certification - I'd rather spend the money on making the house more energy efficient.

 

I've sympathy with that but external, rigorous and impartial certification is probably the antidote to the "throw it up and pay an assessor for the energy band you want" rubbish you and lots of us normally rail against...

 

Argggh, just read on, sorry for creeping the thread again @Russdl

Edited June 28, 2017 by gravelld

[Jeremy Harris]

Just to clarify, you can use PHPP (I did) without needing to incur the additional cost of PH certification.  PHPP is a useful tool, it's the certification cost I'd question the value of.

 

In our case, PHPP just confirmed what I'd already worked out by other means, and I didn't change anything as a consequence of modelling the house with it, and that leads me to believe that you can design a passive house without needing to spend a fortune on consultants.  When I started I knew nothing about low energy house design, and even less about architecture, but still managed to build a house that meets our needs and exceeds the PH requirements.

Edited June 28, 2017 by JSHarris

[gravelld]

I fully realise that, and I fully realise it can be used by laypeople too, having done so myself. It isn't that hard and doesn't deserve the mystique that seems to have built up around it. Using Excel for it seems a bit barmy but aside from that... Furthermore, like you I would personally not aim for certification if I were building a home to live in long term.

 

The point is third party certification whereby the third party's motivations are correctly aligned may be a way of avoiding the conflicts of interest we often discuss.

[PeterW]

Anyone got a copy of the PHPP spreadsheet so I can have a bash and see how bad we will really be ........??

[jack]

39 minutes ago, gravelld said:

The point is third party certification whereby the third party's motivations are correctly aligned may be a way of avoiding the conflicts of interest we often discuss.

 

Agreed. If you don't get it certified, how does a future buyer know that you did everything properly?

 

First, the PH standard involves a lot more than just airtightness and insulation standards. I think a lot of people think that just meeting those two marks makes a house more or less PH standard, but there are also a huge number of other factors. There are limiting values for everything from glazing U-values to MVHR performance to thermal bridging, for example.

 

Second, even if you do everything to the required standards, how does the potential buyer know that you didn't cut corners? For example, let's say you introduced cold bridging with some of your steelwork, because it turned out it was cheaper to do it that way than with a more expensive thermally broken approach. A buyer is unlikely to pick up such a change. Building control won't care as long as the change meets building regs.

 

Certification is not just about ticking some boxes in a spreadsheet before building commences. It involves careful oversight at every stage of the build to ensure that the building is constructed in the way it was designed. I was told, for example, that we'd need to photograph every junction in the house at several stages of construction to show that what was designed was what was being built.

 

That said, of course you don't need certification. We went back and forth on this issue several times, until eventually we decided that it just wasn't worth the extra cost and effort (incidentally: @JSHarris, I doubt you can get away with £1500 additional cost for certification. I estimate a minimum of twice that, and more likely quite a bit more). If we were in Germany and buyers understood the PH standard and were willing to pay a premium, it would likely make perfect financial sense. But we're not, and it doesn't.

[Jeremy Harris]

I've long thought that the best system would be to just provide past energy bills to potential buyers.  There's no arguing about energy efficiency certification standards, whether short cuts were taken by any certification system, etc, if a seller can just show the actual running cost.

[Ferdinand]

22 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Anyone got a copy of the PHPP spreadsheet so I can have a bash and see how bad we will really be ........??

 

 I thought free demo versions were available?