Applying for works on a Group of Trees with TPO

[swisscheese]

I applied to the LAPD for consent to remove some very low (almost touching the ground) overhanging branches, predictably they have refused for the reason:

 

"1. The description of works is non-specific and does not provide a specification for each tree and no reasons have been provided for the works."

 

After re-reading my application and the guidance I don't see what I could have done differently so I have written to the Tree Officer for some advice.

 

I wanted to get started on the groundworks on the build started so I wanted to take the low hanging stuff back to the boundary.

 

Bearing in mind that these trees were properly polarded some 3 years ago, there must have been an application for that, and obviously since polarding the willows have severely bushed out and are massively now over hanging our property. 

 

So my question is simply can I just keep on applying as many times until I get permission to prune?

 

 

[ToughButterCup]

In terms of the application process, I am not sure. But I think this will reassure you.

Bottom line: just do it.

Ian

[Temp]

The simplest but most expensive option would be to employ an aborculturalist (tree surgeon) to do the work. Many councils will have a list of those they are familiar with although they may not recommended someone specifically.

 

The aborculturalist can handle the Application to do the work on the trees including any "method statements" or specifications the tree officer may require.

 

You can do it all yourself but an aborculturalist knows the language to use to keep the tree officer happy. Make sure the aborculturalist knows you have planning permission as I think the wording of that may mean permission isn't needed.

[Barney12]

Can you view the last application on the trees and simply copy it!?

 

[Ferdinand]

Note that your right to trim overhanging branches does not mean that you can go ahead regardless of a TPO. The only exception to that is Dead, Decaying, Diseased (?) or Dangerous, and that decision will need a tree man and the Council would be very likely to visit.

 

I would look at the last application, but the Council are inevitably going to want a tree report from a tree man, and have the work done by a qualified professional if there are TPOs involved.

 

It is actually free to apply, so you *could* try copying it, but then you will be up against copyright etc.

 

Any aboriculturulturulturaliologist will have a template report and a copy of 20 pages of standard method blurb to attach to the back of the survey and recommendations.

 

Or offering Peter W a crate of high quality wine and a copy of the last report might work :-). Or not.

 

My neighbours actually got advice by email from the chief tree officer, and used *that* as the body of their application, complete with his sign off, but that was quite a coup.

 

The most practical option may be to get a tree man and turn him into a tame tree man. I would get a couple of estimates including handling the Council interface, and intimate that they will get the job next time too. Perhaps talk to the one who did it last time?

 

For my last one - I knew it was coming so I had a couple of rough estimates by eye from Treemen over a couple of years, and knew the one to go to. The expense was a sod (3k), so the report and council costs were easily absorbed.

 

Ferdinand

 

Edited October 4, 2016 by Ferdinand

[PeterW]

8 hours ago, swisscheese said:

I applied to the LAPD for consent to remove some very low (almost touching the ground) overhanging branches, predictably they have refused for the reason:

 

"1. The description of works is non-specific and does not provide a specification for each tree and no reasons have been provided for the works."

 

After re-reading my application and the guidance I don't see what I could have done differently so I have written to the Tree Officer for some advice.

 

I wanted to get started on the groundworks on the build started so I wanted to take the low hanging stuff back to the boundary.

 

Bearing in mind that these trees were properly polarded some 3 years ago, there must have been an application for that, and obviously since polarding the willows have severely bushed out and are massively now over hanging our property. 

 

So my question is simply can I just keep on applying as many times until I get permission to prune?

 

 

 

Lets have some photos then as Ferdi seems to have got me on this one..!

 

Questions... 

 

- Did your planning application include any tree reports or require any pruning..?

- What do you need to trim the trees for..? Are they in the way..?

- Who's done the foundation design as willows can be a bugger for drawing water and building near them needs serious thought !

 

 

 

 

[ProDave]

1 hour ago, PeterW said:

- Who's done the foundation design as willows can be a bugger for drawing water and building near them needs serious thought !

 

 

Interesting statement.

 

We have several willow trees on our plot and we are building less than 10 metres from some of them. Contrary to popular belief we are building with just normal strip foundations. The Structural Engieer who made two site visits and witnessed me dig test holes to determine the soil conditions was not the least concerned about the closeness of the willow trees or the fact they might suck the site dry. We just have normal depth strip foundations. Perhaps there is a slight bit of "design" there in that he called for a strong concrete mix for the strip founds and reinforcing mesh in the concrete.

 

Another factor may of course be the trees are right next to the burn so they are not exactly short of a water supply.  Our site never dries completely and in winter can be quite wet with a very high water table.

 

Also when digging the foundations we didn't encounter any significant tree roots.


 

[PeterW]

10m is a long way away - 3-5m and you're into different territory ! Add in a clay soil and if you remove them then you can see a significant change in the soil.

 

If you look at a tree as an "8", the roots will be a similar span to the branches  - some such as sycamore and chestnut will throw a decent tap root, whilst others will run for quite a way around 19-24" under the surface. Its a lot about common sense with design - I am looking at a significant sycamore within 3m of a foundation but NHBC guidance only needs 1.2m deep trench fill with a 50mm expansion foam.

 

 

[Ferdinand]

I'll add that I was mainly responding to the existence of the TPO.

 

Depending on the circs, particularly the visibility and if the work was very minor, there are occasions on which I would JFDI a TPO trim if I was sure what I was doing. eg I might trim downhanging branches on a weeping ash since these snap off every 45 seconds anyway.

 

Whether I would do it when Planners were potentially around, and if they had previously inspected, though...

 

Ferdinand

 

[swisscheese]

Thanks for getting back All.

 

I have asked to see the previous application for works.

 

This is a direct quote from the Tree Office to the Planner regarding our Tree Rebutal submission during our Planning Application process:

 

Having digested the report of Dr Frank Hope dated 8 September 2015 in which he addresses the comments of "Tempoary Tree Officer", I am inclined to agree with his findings and conclusions. In summary it is reasonable to consider these trees to have a root protection area of 4.0m radius from the trunks and that regular pollarding (a management necessity) will mitigate nuisance.

 

The Willows were a problem throughout application and have a cost implication on the foundation design by a local well respected SE. - Piles and ringbeam.

 

Attaching a couple of photos of the overhang.

 

The Privet hedge is ours and is about 2-3ft thick and the boundary fence is behind that.

The Willows sit in small wet area; natural pond drain, though there is rarely any water in it, even in a wet winter like last year.  Our site level is about a 1.5m above the level of the pond. 

It's not in my interest to damage the Willows as they provide some natural screening, though the leaf fall will be a pain.

 

Well, I wanted to get them back a bit to make it easier for the piling rig, I really don't need to incur more costs for inconvenience and wanted to avoid any damage the rig may inadvertently cause.

 

 

Edited October 5, 2016 by swisscheese
addition

[Ferdinand]

I would like to know whether it is possible to get a continuing authorisation for cyclic pruning say every 3 years with a single application, or at least a single report from a relevant ologist submitted with an application every 3 years?

 

That would recude paperwork so I suspect it is not possible !

 

Ferdinand

 

[PeterW]

Do they sit on your land..?
 

You can't willfully damage a tree and get away with it as "pruning" but if you put a piling rig through there and observe the 4m RPA and branches are damaged in the process (so you have taken REASONABLE CARE) then trimming back the damage would not require permission under the DDD&D clauses relating to TPOs.

 

Can you PM me a link to the the Dr Frank Hope report..?

[swisscheese]

No not on my plot - adjacent.

pm'ing - the link - rebuttal from Frank

 

 

[ProDave]

So normal common law allows you to prune overhanging trees from a neighbour as long as you offer the cuttings back to them.

 

So what if you didn't know they were protected by a TPO, why would you know? they are not your trees and not on your land?

 

 

If you had a goat, and you parked say a vehicle on your land under the tree, the goat go on the roof and ate all it could reach, would the goat go to prison?

 

All devils advocate of course 


 

[PeterW]

I've just read that report on the train and its legendary !

 

Its a 16 page obliteration of the council and their understanding of BS5837 and how it is applied - what concerns me most is that the TPO does not indicate which of a group of trees are actually covered..?! Legally unless the council can provide the tree map that was initially provided, then the current TPO is worthless - the downside is that the council may well just slap a site TPO on the lot and that leaves you and the owner with very little place to go when you do want work doing.

 

Questions from me are :

- how well do you know the owner of the trees..?

- how much do you want to prune back..?

- does the owner plan to re-pollard the trees in the near future..?

 

For those who want to know who Frank is, just look at his website.... Expert is doing down someone who I would say is one of the best - if not the best - TPO and legal expert in the UK. He's a former inspector who dealt with TPO appeals, and I've read some of his judgments.....!  http://www.frankhope.com/tree-expert-witness

 

[swisscheese]

Yes, Frank was excellent and I couldn't recommend him highly enough, his list of qualifications and connections is incredible.

 

The Site and Trees have a (failing application) planning history so Franks instruction was clear, do not talk to or get into a conversation with the Tree Officer or Council, he dealt with it all.  It was worth it, but will get costly if I have to ask him to write a report every time I need to apply for works.

 

The owner of the Trees was vehemently opposed to our Planning Application.  She is unlikely to voluntarily apply for re-pollarding despite the recommendation from the LA Tree Officer.

Prune back, ideally to the boundary to about 6m height - at this stage the reality is I just need to Prune back for clearance for plant and machinery.

 

Thanks for your input.

[PeterW]

 Have you got to do any RPA fencing before you start..?? If not, drive the rig onto site and if it "catches" the trees the they are damaged and you have a duty of care to prune the damaged branches back, remembering to give next door back the trimmings ...

 

You could also give Frank a quick call for advice too - may advise over the phone