Size and layout of your networking cupboard?

[puntloos]

8 hours ago, Scoobyrex said:

My network/AV build is as follows.

 

2 x Middle Atlantic Wall pivot rack (16U)

1st rack

Cisco 8 Port POE switch

Cisco 48 Port Gigabit switch

2x2.5Gb Fibre trunks between switches.

48 port patch panel

TP Link cloud controller.

6 x TP Link Access Points

Sonicwall Firewall

EMC NAS

Bunch of smart home stuff. 

 

I should of got a bigger POE switch.  I am on the limit of the poe output and have no further upgrade potential.

The 48 port switch has 32 ports used, I have swapped the fans out for noctua's to reduce the obscene noise it produces.

 

2nd rack

Pioneer AV Receiver (Living Room)

Pioneer AV Receiver (Family room)

Yamaha Network Amp (Garden)

 

The house has a T-shape stairs, with two separate under stair cupboards,  one of these will be the comms room, it measures 1.7M x 0.9M, has a slanted ceiling hence the two separate racks.

 

My plan is to have both a feed and exhaust for the MHVR system into this comms room for cooling.

 

 

 

https://www.habitech.co.uk/Mid-Atlantic-Wall-Rack-Pivoting-Sectional-Cabinet-Black?quantity=1&uvalues=3 this one?

What do you figure is the absolute minimum closet size to be able to use that pivoting action? 

[Scoobyrex]

1 minute ago, puntloos said:

https://www.habitech.co.uk/Mid-Atlantic-Wall-Rack-Pivoting-Sectional-Cabinet-Black?quantity=1&uvalues=3 this one?

What do you figure is the absolute minimum closet size to be able to use that pivoting action? 

 

Just measured it, mine is the 17" not 22" depth.

The wall plate to the pivot pin hole is 16cm

The pivot pin in the rack is 66cm to the diagonal corner.

 

72cm+  minimum space required to full pivot.

[puntloos]

7 minutes ago, Scoobyrex said:

 

Just measured it, mine is the 17" not 22" depth.

The wall plate to the pivot pin hole is 16cm

The pivot pin in the rack is 66cm to the diagonal corner.

 

72cm+  minimum space required to full pivot.

Very interesting given that the specs page seems to say something like 60-odd cm width, so if you believe them and build a 60cm wide box you will not be able to open it.

 

I'll go with 75ish cm wide, 60cm deep.. but I just realised it will probably not work for me. 

What I want is open(ish) on both front and back and I don't think the back is accessible. I like the pivoting forward action but a few devices I actually want to see the front of (in particular - the amplifier needs to face my living room - see attached pic) 

 

 

[AliG]

@puntloos I have a very similar set up to you there. I have a Mid Atlantic 39u rack that is 600mm wide by 800mm deep. The media people wanted the extra depth.

 

We built the front of the cupboard to the size of the rack. The rack has a perspex door n the front. We didn't put the back door on the cabinet and just put a normal house door on the back of the cupboard.

 

The rack was just pushed through until it was in place and hasn't been moved since. The rear access makes moving the wires around a dream. The switches face the back and the AV gear faces the front.

 

 

[Scoobyrex]

19 minutes ago, puntloos said:

Very interesting given that the specs page seems to say something like 60-odd cm width, so if you believe them and build a 60cm wide box you will not be able to open it.

 

I'll go with 75ish cm wide, 60cm deep.. but I just realised it will probably not work for me. 

What I want is open(ish) on both front and back and I don't think the back is accessible. I like the pivoting forward action but a few devices I actually want to see the front of (in particular - the amplifier needs to face my living room - see attached pic) 

 

 

 

Just realized I added that up wrong it is 82cm required for a pivot.

I have a mid atlantic rack here that I did my network build on to have a play ready for the new house, on the basis I would be short on time with other stuff to play with IT gear.

 

I have seen some pull out racks on rails that would work for your install.

12U Slide Out Open Frame Network/AV Rack - Server-Racks | United Kingdom (startech.com)

[puntloos]

7 hours ago, AliG said:

@puntloos I have a very similar set up to you there. I have a Mid Atlantic 39u rack that is 600mm wide by 800mm deep. The media people wanted the extra depth.

 

We built the front of the cupboard to the size of the rack. The rack has a perspex door n the front. We didn't put the back door on the cabinet and just put a normal house door on the back of the cupboard.

So you have a full-height door into the livingroom so you can access your AV stuff- do I have that right?

 

My plan for now really is more a tiny hatch in the living room (less "jarring" than a big door).. The hatch only really needs some minor access to the front panel of the main amplifier, and a guide for my VR headset to pass through

Quote

 

The rack was just pushed through until it was in place and hasn't been moved since. The rear access makes moving the wires around a dream. The switches face the back and the AV gear faces the front.

 

 

Very cool. Do you by any chance have any pictures for me?

 

7 hours ago, Scoobyrex said:

Just realized I added that up wrong it is 82cm required for a pivot.

I have a mid atlantic rack here that I did my network build on to have a play ready for the new house, on the basis I would be short on time with other stuff to play with IT gear.

 

I have seen some pull out racks on rails that would work for your install.

12U Slide Out Open Frame Network/AV Rack - Server-Racks | United Kingdom (startech.com)

Pretty nice! Will consider the right one, maybe the pullout methods is somewhat easier, and at the end of the day it is 'install once, and only minor mods since' - it doesn't have to be ultra-easy to maintain.

Edited May 26, 2021 by puntloos

[joth]

22 hours ago, Scoobyrex said:

keystone jacks use RJ45 termination and enable stranded cable to be use for structured cabling. It still shouldnt be used for POE applications.  use solid core cables and punchdowns for both patch panel and wall sockets.

 

fitting rj45's on solid core cables for keystones is a real chore as the solid cores are to big for the pin sockets of the RJ45.

 

Interesting - the keystone jacks I have use punch down not RJ45 style crimp connection.

That said, I have successfully crimped oversized (CAT6A 24AWG) solid cores onto RJ45, just have to use the correct sort of jack designed for the larger cores, that have staggered entry holes.

 

Excellent point about the stranded patch cables. I had assumed by opting for CAT6A patch cables I'd get thicker core cross section, but looks like they're only 26AWG equivalent (happily I've used the shortest ones I can, most are only 20 cm long so probably fine as you say)

 

 

22 hours ago, Scoobyrex said:

 

My plan is to have both a feed and exhaust for the MHVR system into this comms room for cooling.

 

 

I'd be very wary about relying on MVHR for active cooling of a machine room like that. When all the gear is on I expect you'll have many hundred watts of heat being dumped, and MVHR will only shift 10s of watts at most. It's effectively useless for equipment cooling.

I put an MVHR extract in the AV cupboard (with much less gear in it) and supply right outside it, and it's overheating (an, I believe, overheating the bedroom next to it - thread) so I've actually pulled the MVHR vent out of the AV cupboard ceiling and replaced with a larger extract fan to dump the heat directly into the loft. Up there I have a fan coil which provides active cooling (fed from the ASHP).  I've also started relocating some of the worst offenders for heat generation out into the loft (the windows box running Blue Iris is particularly bad, and the Virgin modem and Unifi Router are also pretty poor). 

 

Regarding the slide a turn racks -  I got one of these, but then had cold feet about putting the patch panel on it as I wanted the solid-core installation cables terminated in a fixed location where they'll not get flexed. Whereas the rack does get moved in and out a fair bit as I do like to tinker with the installed gear (and, I don't have the luxury of a dual access cupboard)

 

 

 

[AliG]

Picture of the front and rear of the cupboard.

 

Note the tidy cabling!

 

 

[IanR]

I don't recognise the first picture, but the second is exactly what I expect of a coms cabinet!

 

[AliG]

The first picture is the front of the cabinet, we framed out the wall to the size of the cabinet and got a cabinet with a perspex door on front. So you can access the Xbox etc from the front and the cables from the back.

 

The cabinet does not seem to need any cooling, but puts an enormous amount of heat into the room where the UFH has never been switched on.

 

In the summer I leave the back door of the cabinet open into the utility room which helps dissipate the heat.

 

You can hear the fans of various items in the cabinet, but I don't find it annoying, once the projector is on it is louder still. The loudest fan was the PoE switch which I replaced which a fanless one when it broke. But you still have the Sky Q box and the CCTV NVR which is particularly noisy. Once you are watching something it all fades into the background.

[Scoobyrex]

2 hours ago, joth said:

 

Interesting - the keystone jacks I have use punch down not RJ45 style crimp connection.

That said, I have successfully crimped oversized (CAT6A 24AWG) solid cores onto RJ45, just have to use the correct sort of jack designed for the larger cores, that have staggered entry holes.

 

Excellent point about the stranded patch cables. I had assumed by opting for CAT6A patch cables I'd get thicker core cross section, but looks like they're only 26AWG equivalent (happily I've used the shortest ones I can, most are only 20 cm long so probably fine as you say)

 

 

 

I'd be very wary about relying on MVHR for active cooling of a machine room like that. When all the gear is on I expect you'll have many hundred watts of heat being dumped, and MVHR will only shift 10s of watts at most. It's effectively useless for equipment cooling.

I put an MVHR extract in the AV cupboard (with much less gear in it) and supply right outside it, and it's overheating (an, I believe, overheating the bedroom next to it - thread) so I've actually pulled the MVHR vent out of the AV cupboard ceiling and replaced with a larger extract fan to dump the heat directly into the loft. Up there I have a fan coil which provides active cooling (fed from the ASHP).  I've also started relocating some of the worst offenders for heat generation out into the loft (the windows box running Blue Iris is particularly bad, and the Virgin modem and Unifi Router are also pretty poor). 

 

Regarding the slide a turn racks -  I got one of these, but then had cold feet about putting the patch panel on it as I wanted the solid-core installation cables terminated in a fixed location where they'll not get flexed. Whereas the rack does get moved in and out a fair bit as I do like to tinker with the installed gear (and, I don't have the luxury of a dual access cupboard)

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for your feedback regarding the MHVR,  I could put an extractor with ducting to the loft as I have a access run for the MHVR close by.  Could use a temperature controller to switch the fan on/off as required.

[puntloos]

@jothVentilation is going to be crucial, that much is clear. Although, I am somewhat surprised that MVHR can't handle it because in the kitchen we have 1500-3000W burners generating theoretically much more heat. Much larger space of course but presumably still the same amount of heat that has to be dealt with?

 

Are these storage racks typically open at the bottom, and exhausted at the top?

 

Yes I'm still trying to figure out how to keep things both accessible, not moving *too* much. The pivot looks cool but the flexing point is important. 

 

My challenge is that aesthetically, (and you can now revoke my nerd credentials) I want as little network/AV gear to be seen as possible. My current design literally had a teensy hidden 'door' peeking into the livingroom. I think I might have to create a full door, but it would need to be as hidden as possible in the livingroom. What are the best type of hidden doors here? Or does it work better to not be 'embarassed' about a door?

 

Edited May 26, 2021 by puntloos

[puntloos]

2 hours ago, AliG said:

Picture of the front and rear of the cupboard.

 

Note the tidy cabling!

 

Nice! Thank you so much. qq:, you said your AV people wanted 800mm .. can you expand somewhat? Which things are actually that deep? 

Also - do you mean 800mm actual space, or is the outside of your closet that big? (what are your internal, vs external dimensions of the box?)

 

[AliG]

The heat is definitely an issue.

 

I made the MVHR in the cinema room an extract as I thought it would help and it also would create some free heating elsewhere, but it does not.

 

Although an oven or a hob ring might use 2-3kw, they don't run continuously 24 hours a day. They switch off once the required temperature has been achieved and a large amount of heat is absorbed by the heavy metal.

 

I reckon that when we are watching the projector screen, we have around 1.5kw w of power being consumed between the PJ, amp and the other devices in the AV cabinet. They mostly have cooling fans pushing excess heat out into the room. I suspect that the amp and PJ aren't much more than 50% efficient and the rest of the power goes into excess heat.

 

We basically use the PJ as our main TV and so it can be on for over 10 hours a day. That probably pushes a good 5kwh of energy into a 30sq metre room, with the switches, Sky box etc on 24 hours a day it probably pushes 7-8kwh in total. At 0C outside the house need around 300w/metre of heat. So at 0C outside this room stays at 21C. In the summer when no heat input is needed I see the temperature rising to 27C+ sometimes. MVHR just cannot move 7-8kwh of energy. I can see on charts on the Heatmiser when someone turns on the PJ, the temperature starts to rise almost immediately.

[AliG]

6 minutes ago, puntloos said:

you said your AV people wanted 800mm .. can you expand somewhat? Which things are actually that deep

It was to make it easier to route the cables they said.

 

The ethernet cables come down in the centre of the rack and go into the back of what is like a patch panel, but flat like a network switch, not sure what it is called. They are then connect to the switched by the patch cables. There are about 30 of these ethernet cables plus various speaker cables, power etc so a lot of cables to route.

 

I tried to persuade them to use a Sanus rack as it was half the price, but they said 600mm was not deep enough. Really I think it just makes working on it easier.

 

None of the devices need anywhere near this depth, but it does allow for things to be mounted at the front or the back which creates more space.

 

I bought generic drawers for the rack from EBAY to store stuff. They were a lot cheaper than Mid Atlantic ones.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[AliG]

30 minutes ago, AliG said:

At 0C outside the house need around 300w/metre of heat.

Sorry 0.3kwh/metre/day, so the room needs around 10kwh a day of heat input on the coldest days which the AV equipment seems to provide.

[TonyT]

contains TV cabling/distribution

data cabling

netgear WiFi router

netgear switch 

UPS for WiFi router

 

[joth]

5 hours ago, puntloos said:

@jothVentilation is going to be crucial, that much is clear. Although, I am somewhat surprised that MVHR can't handle it because in the kitchen we have 1500-3000W burners generating theoretically much more heat. Much larger space of course but presumably still the same amount of heat that has to be dealt with?

 

Kitchen is less of an issue, unless you intend to leave 3kW burning running 24/7. It's venting into a larger space for a shorter period, so the roam can absorb the blast of heat and distribute it widely around the place.

A cupboard has maybe 10th the power but it's on for 20-30 times longer per day and all caught in a smaller space. Also the kitchen normally has a double extract.  I guess that's another option to try in the AV room.

 

 

[TerryE]

I don't have a networking cupboard; just a 20cm deep shelf above my consumer unit and a flush mounted patch panel in the wall with a wall mounted ethernet switch below it.  (This is in my utility room so having it all on view isn't really an issue.)  I have a couple of Argon ONE M2 RPis (running Home assistant and a general Docker host) as well as my ASUS master router and BT 180Mb modem on the shelf.  I also have 1 × Gb eNet to each room (a couple have 2 and in retrospect I should really have doubled these.  I also have 3×ASUS mesh slaves (one in my study on the 1st floor, one in my son's bed-sit on the 2nd, and one in a shed covering the garden); these also act as local 4-port Gb hubs.  I also have a PoE switch in the shed from which I run my external cameras. 

Edited December 29, 2022 by TerryE