Cost of complete interior renovation in old croft building

[sniederb]

We're looking at buying a property which would need renovation of pretty much the entire interior. The original building was built around 1870 (afaik), and later extended. There is a damp issue (see other post), no central heating, and the entire interior is rather old. Furthermore, there is a separate building labeled "barn" which we'd like to refurbish as a home office.

So, our list:

• Resolve dampness in 150 year old building (sustainably? £1,000
• Install central / underfloor heating: £2,500
• Rewiring: £2,500
• Replace all floors (probably with stone and/or wood): £3,000
• Replace all windows and doors: £4,000
• Replace staircase: £1,000
• Replace all wood panel walls: £2,000
• Reopen fireplace living room: £800
• Put in new kitchen: £5,000
• Put in new bathroom: £2,000
• Finish "barn" to be used as office space (additional window, redo bathroom, change sink, finish walls, ceiling, floor): £8,000

 

The price estimates are taken from https://www.homebuilding.co.uk/renovation-assessing-the-potential/, and I personally find many of them ridiculously low. However, having absolutely no experience with house building / renovation, who am I to judge. From the above, I get the feeling with a budget of about £50,000 we might be ok. Does that seem rather low, high, or reasonable?

 

 

[Ferdinand]

Welcome to the club.

 

Can't really comment without loads more detail, but try another way - £500-£600 per square metre,  assuming there is nothing big and structural (eg roof,  reconfiguring walls etc),

 

Those prices look to me to be perhaps doable for someone experienced who is networked in with good suppliers on a small house (= 2 bed or 2 up 2 down), or some for a self-restorer doing the labour. For a newbie or a 3 bed + house - too optimistic, especially if it is for you; we always overspend on things we love.

 

Also crofts tend to be in the back of beyond, so trades have to travel.

 

Also I usually do brick semis and b7ngalows not crofts.

 

Ferdinand

 

Edited August 11, 2019 by Ferdinand

[sniederb]

4 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

Welcome to the club.

 

Can't really comment without loads more detail, but try another way - £500-£600 per square metre,  assuming there is nothing big and structural (eg roof,  reconfiguring walls etc),

 

Those prices look to me to be perhaps doable for someone experienced who is networked in with good suppliers on a small house (= 2 bed or 2 up 2 down), or some for a self-restorer doing the labour. For a newbie or a 3 bed + house - too optimistic, especially if it is for you; we always overspend on things we love.

 

Also crofts tend to be in the back of beyond, so trades have to travel.

 

Ferdinand

 

Thanks Ferdinand. With approx. 110m2 that comes to be £55,000 - £65,000, which fits pretty good with our expectations. Currently that rough estimate is really all we need to know. 

[ProDave]

I would forget UFH.  I doubt you have the ceiling height to build the floor up by 100mm or more that you NEED to do to add insulation for UFH.  And if you start thinking of digging up the floor to lower it to add insulation, that is where you might find the stone walls have no foundations. (I know someone who started on a steading conversion, started to dig to lower the floor and found just that. He knocked down and rebuilt.)

 

Don't under estimate the work.  I first fixed a croft house renovation in Rogart 18 months ago.  The couple are doing all the work themselves.  10 months later they called me back, but not for second fix, just to move a few things around. They had barely scratched the surface.  It might be a long time before I go back to second fix.

[Ferdinand]

Quote

• Resolve dampness in 150 year old building (sustainably? £1,000
• Install central / underfloor heating: £2,500
• Rewiring: £2,500
• Replace all floors (probably with stone and/or wood): £3,000
• Replace all windows and doors: £4,000
• Replace staircase: £1,000
• Replace all wood panel walls: £2,000
• Reopen fireplace living room: £800
• Put in new kitchen: £5,000
• Put in new bathroom: £2,000
• Finish "barn" to be used as office space (additional window, redo bathroom, change sink, finish walls, ceiling, floor): £8,000

 

I am considering "back to plaster", not "back to brick".

 

The other question for an older property is "unknown unknowns". If you suddenly find you need a new roof, or have a bit of rotten wall, or some joists with dry rot, or need a new septic tank which now has to be a poo-plant, that can each add anything from £500 to £8000 on its own, and it might be prudent to assume that you may have 1-5 such events happen. Or not and you get a holiday.

 

==> big, big contingency.

 

To me eye, the central heating, rewiring, reglazing, and possibly bathroom costs look ambitious, whilst the kitchen may be generous (but I am a bloke and some people spend that x2 on a range.) And you do not have anything in for replumbing, or renovating the fabric to a higher insulation standard, or ventilation. Or external works eg any wall built from stone or brick will be about £100-200+ per sqm if you pay for it.

So consider the possibility of 80-100k by the time you have done it, and added shiny bits. Vs what it will be worth also.

Also @ProDave has done a number of similar things, and is in Scotland. And a well built old property is very different from a poorly built old property.

 

Ferdinand

 

Edited August 11, 2019 by Ferdinand

[Cpd]

9 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

So consider the possibility of 80-100k by the time you have done it, and added shiny bits. Vs what it will be worth also.

 

I think this is more realistic,  some other points to consider 

you need to  understand the damp issues, many time consuming possibilities 

how is the roof, chimneys and gutters,

is there adequate exterior drainage round the house, 

wood paneling costs a lot.... is this fire safe / allowed  and are all the noggins and stud work rotten ....... 

reopen fire place, with what as a good wood burning stove will cost you £1000+ and then you have to line the chimney etc redo chimney and build the actual fire place / insulate 

i don't see a significant cost associated with new insulation........... 

There will be more......  but a few more things to consider 

 

 

[Thedreamer]

I lived in a solid stone croft house for five years and it cost a fortunate to heat. £100 a month in oil and another £60 for electricity and it never felt warm. On these properties often you peel back the plasterboard and flooring and goodness knows what is there. 

 

They look attractive but the way we live now can result in damp, mould etc. A lot of properties locally have also recently been clad in external insulation on a free scheme and they look terrible.

 

We actually moved out 5 years ago from the croft house to live with my in-laws in order to save enough to buy built a house on our croft.

 

I would double most of those prices and in built a 20% contingency.

 

[Ferdinand]

Quote

i don't see a significant cost associated with new insulation..........

 

Part agree. Cold roof should be free. Room in roof not so.

 

Walls Would be 10-20+ per sqm if say 50mm celotex and pb then skim etc, or similar. Eg Celotex PL4050 is 40-50 a sheet, plus delivery to timbuctoo.

 

10m x 5.5m footprint x 2 x 2 x 2.4 = 150 sqm = 2-5k. Depending who fits. Assuming 2 floors, which may or may not be true.

 

Edited August 11, 2019 by Ferdinand

[Thedreamer]

4 minutes ago, Thedreamer said:

I lived in a solid stone croft house for five years and it cost a fortunate to heat. £100 a month in oil and another £60 for electricity and it never felt warm. On these properties often you peel back the plasterboard and flooring and goodness knows what is there. 

 

They look attractive but the way we live now can result in damp, mould etc. A lot of properties locally have also recently been clad in external insulation on a free scheme and they look terrible.

 

We actually moved out 5 years ago from the croft house to live with my in-laws in order to save enough to buy built a house on our croft.

 

I would double most of those prices and in built a 20% contingency.

 

 

Might be worth determining the legal status of the property, the term 'croft' or 'croft house' often gets used when it is not applicable.

 

Crofting law particularly for property, security, deeds etc is a specialist area and care should be taken to understand what you may acquire. 

[ProDave]

3 minutes ago, Thedreamer said:

 

Might be worth determining the legal status of the property, the term 'croft' or 'croft house' often gets used when it is not applicable.

 

Crofting law particularly for property, security, deeds etc is a specialist area and care should be taken to understand what you may acquire. 

I use the term "croft house" to describe a particular style of house that is very common up here, even in the towns.  In most cases, even if actually on a croft, the actual ground the house is on and a bit around it has been de crofted.

[sniederb]

9 minutes ago, Thedreamer said:

 

Might be worth determining the legal status of the property, the term 'croft' or 'croft house' often gets used when it is not applicable.

 

Crofting law particularly for property, security, deeds etc is a specialist area and care should be taken to understand what you may acquire. 

Thanks for the advice there, @Thedreamer. The property was de-crofted quite a while ago. We'd obviously verify that through our solicitor, but honestly, with the current replies in this thread I'm starting to doubt this renovation project. 

[Ferdinand]

You need to run the numbers well enough so that YOU have confidence in YOUR decision. We all have views that are best considered as a supplementary checklist for the purposes of checking your assumption ... which was the request.

 

Buy lunch for a neighbour who has restored one in the style you would likely do ; we all love talking about our projects over a donated lunch.

 

My last one I ended up paying 3k extra for half a new roof that I judged wrongly. Assumed that a 1970 roof would still have 20 years in it. Wrongggg ! I was OK in money terms because I had saved more than that elsewhere and bought for less than expected. Still a shock when a leak appeared in my pristine lounge ceiling just a couple of months in.

 

You could eg deliberately phase, or be ready to as Plan B, phase your budget and accept that you need an ultra-duvet for a few years.

Edited August 11, 2019 by Ferdinand

[ProDave]

2 random example by way of comparison in roughly your search area.

 

This one, 3 bedrooms, EPC B, nice and modern, ready to move into, with option to purchase the croft land if you want for £240K. https://www.hspc.co.uk/Property-with-Land-For-Sale-Kinver-177-Stoer-Lochinver-IV27-4JE

 

Or this old cottage needing pretty much complete reonvation. 3 bedrooms, EPC F  offers over £150K https://www.hspc.co.uk/Detached-Villa-For-Sale-269-Achnacarnin-Lochinver-IV27-4JG

 

To those not from the area, that second one is your typical 100 year old or more "croft house"

 

The question is, can you make the second one into a comfortable home to match the first one for less than £90K?  And it will probably still be smaller, a more quirky layout, small windows and darker inside.

 

 

[Mr Punter]

Solving the dampness issue is best done with type C which involves stripping all internal linings.

 

I can understand why the idea of a croft house conjures up romantic notions of renovating a beautiful old building but it will be lots of work and cost and you will end up with a poor layout and a substandard house compared to a well designed new one.

 

If you find a plot and start from scratch you could build a lovely home that is sustainable, easy to heat, clean, dry, airy, light and with spaces that work for you. There are also far fewer unknown costs with new build.

[Thedreamer]

1 hour ago, ProDave said:

I use the term "croft house" to describe a particular style of house that is very common up here, even in the towns.  In most cases, even if actually on a croft, the actual ground the house is on and a bit around it has been de crofted.

 

Yes a lot of house designers or architects used this term even play on crofting activities to sell the design.

 

https://www.scandia-hus.co.uk/designs/the-croft/

 

http://www.ruralhouse.co.uk/houses/rc4/

 

The irony is that designs like these marketed as 'croft house'  which are beyond the reach of young crofters struggling to work the land and afford a property. It is a real issue in the Highlands and Islands and one that nearly made us move away from our crofting township. Fortunately we were able to save enough money and obtain a croft house grant to build.

 

The majority of 'croft houses' that are working croft houses are not the older ones. The majority of the older ones have been separated from the crofter, gone to ruin, used as holiday lets in the summer and then long lets to some poor soul in the winter. 

 

 

 

 

[sniederb]

5 hours ago, ProDave said:

I would forget UFH.  I doubt you have the ceiling height to build the floor up by 100mm or more that you NEED to do to add insulation for UFH.  And if you start thinking of digging up the floor to lower it to add insulation, that is where you might find the stone walls have no foundations. (I know someone who started on a steading conversion, started to dig to lower the floor and found just that. He knocked down and rebuilt.)

 

Don't under estimate the work.  I first fixed a croft house renovation in Rogart 18 months ago.  The couple are doing all the work themselves.  10 months later they called me back, but not for second fix, just to move a few things around. They had barely scratched the surface.  It might be a long time before I go back to second fix.

@ProDave, is there a difference in this whether we go for UFH, or central heating with radiators? I assume for both you'd need insulated pipes running across the floor, but maybe there's a difference I'm unaware of.

[Ferdinand]

11 minutes ago, sniederb said:

@ProDave, is there a difference in this whether we go for UFH, or central heating with radiators? I assume for both you'd need insulated pipes running across the floor, but maybe there's a difference I'm unaware of.

 

UFH you need significant insulation underneath plus the layer with the pipes.

 

So it would be about 150mm deep at least.

 

Plus it buggers up your doors, which may or may not be a problem,

Edited August 11, 2019 by Ferdinand

[ProDave]

You could really do with some floor insulation even if you have radiators. Just one of the dificulties with these old houses, and why there is so much work to get them to a decent standard.

[Hobbiniho]

I have just about completed a partial refurb of my house which has taken 1 year of me working in my time off work i work a 2on 3off rota so plenty of time, i have a ~1880 concrete "croft" house i have stripped out the livingroom/ kitchen, bathroom and utility room, i have fitted new insulation to the walls downstairs (75mm PIR) and built new walls not touched the floor its partial suspended timber and partial solid concrete, the house has had a complete rewire (at mates rates) and i have replumbed it completely myself, i have had an ASHP installed at a cost of £10k as its an MCS install, new kitchen was £7.3k, spent about £1500 on bathroom stuff about £1200 on new external waste pipes and new water main (they were all in the wrong place)

 

I think my total will be about 30k and that is with me doing all the labour myself as i am a time served joiner i was able to call in lots of favours from tradesmen friends as well as using my mates trade accounts at the local builders merchants , which has saved me £££. Personally if you are going to do a refurb you either go full on and start with bare walls or save your money and just do the bare minimum to make it habitable. I am really mad with myself that i didnt just bite the bullet and redo the floor, i could have had UFH instead of the fan assisted rads but im happy enough with what i have 

[SteamyTea]

On 11/08/2019 at 12:05, sniederb said:

Resolve dampness in 150 year old building (sustainably? £1,000

What makes you think it will be that cheap.

Ask 10 damp specialists and they will give you ten different answers, and they will all be over £1000.

[sniederb]

4 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

What makes you think it will be that cheap.

Ask 10 damp specialists and they will give you ten different answers, and they will all be over £1000.

I got all figures from here: https://www.homebuilding.co.uk/renovation-assessing-the-potential/#damp. As stated, they seem low, but I don't have the experience to know for sure.