Arrrgh can't make my mind up!

[gc100]

So crunch time has come. I've sold the house, money in the bank and now I need to decide ideally in the next couple of days who to build my house. I have narrowed it down to 2 options:

 

• Established local building company with a large team good reputation Fixed quote (subject to change of course). Lets call them Widget Ltd.
• 2 man band who 'are the best builders around' - recommended by a good friend (plasterer) who works with many many builders in the area. Pay as you go £230/day rate each.  Lets call the Bill&Bob.

 

Widget Ltd have good experience in lots of construction types and passive house builds. They are quoting a 6 month build.

Bill&Bob have lots of experience in different builds - recently a couple of wood constructions which I went to visit and the owner couldn't speak more highly of them and their work, skill and ethic. They think it will take then 12 to 14 months to do the build.

 

Both can start in the next couple of months.

 

My gut is telling me they will end up costing around the same (Bill &Bob possibly more), though I'm still waiting for an independent QS report. However the approach will be much more different. With Bill &Bob I will be involved in every stage and will get time to consider my options, whereas Widget Ltd will move a lot quicker and I suspect take a lot of decisions on my behalf unless I specify them at the start. I have a full time company of my own and kids so my time is limited, however I need to have control on all the decisions that will effect everything I see and touch. There are many details I've not had time to think about what I really want (electrical layout, lighting, MVRH, external water/electrical, wall finishes, bathrooms, etc). 

 

I think I will be dragged into getting quotes much much more with Bill&Bob but there is the potential to save money. An example I know of is the sewage treatment plant (Widgets Ltd quoted £3700 in their cost analysis, and I know I can get it for £3100). However on raw materials I suspect their will not be a massive difference due to their buying power vs mine. Another example is they are quoting £27K for the zinc roof (in house team), which is about what I'm getting quoted from specialist companies, so ultimately there is not going to be massive difference I think. Widget Ltd day rate for anything outside of the contract is £200/day.

 

I know if go with Bill&Bob I will ultimately get a quality build with the finish I want, but at a cost and a significant longer build time. I think I would still get a quality build with Widget Ltd, but not quite at the same standard perhaps - but would I actually notice?

 

I'm paying £1050/m rent so the shorter the build the better and franky I just want to get on with it, and move in as its taken me nearly 4 years to get to this position (most of that was planning fight with LPA). So there is a side of me that wants to to take the 'easy' option and go with Widgets Ltd, versus the longer, slower, more involved process with Bill&Bob.

 

Anyone been in a similar situation before they started??

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[epsilonGreedy]

An enviable dilemma.

 

When will the respective teams get the roof on? I ask because I can see Widget Ltd wanting to push on at speed when adverse weather is hitting your open structure.

[joe90]

27 minutes ago, gc100 said:

Anyone been in a similar situation before they started??

No, I used a local builder with a brilliant reputation, fixed price (for what I wanted as I was supplying and fixings loads myself) I did not even get another quote. I think the difference in timescale is the cruncher ( I.e. rent and frustration at waiting for completion) as they both appear “good” and I would make sure you visit as much as possible and “cast your eye over the work” to make sure everything is exactly as you want as they build it, not afterwards when it can’t be changed. Another thing is the fixed price, it’s amazing how things can go over budget when applying a day rate, you need to budget your build from day one, not have to cut corners later because costs go out the window. I think bill and bob would do a good job but at an unknown cost to you.

Edited August 5, 2019 by joe90

[ragg987]

I went the bill&Bob route with my build, except it was a one man band with a bunch of subbies.

 

If I were to do it again this would remain a good option, however I needed (and wanted) to be quite involved to the extent that I brought in other specialist trades outsider my builders network.

 

This seems like a classic 3 cornered triangle of cost, speed, quality. If this is your long term home and you are prepared to be pretty involved I would suggest bill&Bob is going to give you the best outcome.

 

Some considerations from my experience:

 

1. Specialist Vs generalist. The specialist trades will complete the job faster, better and to better quality. If you can contract these in as needed that might be a useful supplement to the team. E.g. plumbers, plasterer, tiler, timber frame.

 

2. Whilst builders might be able to get better prices for materials, don't assume they will pass on the benefit to you. A bit of googling and ringing around will usually get you a better price.

 

3. While you are factoring rent, don't forget cost of any finance. A longer build time will increase the interest period.

Edited August 5, 2019 by ragg987

[ragg987]

Oh and one other aspect is what sort of relationship you think you might have with either. You need to be able to trust and be in for the haul, e.g. when the inevitable snags appear will they still be interested or available?

[nod]

You will probably get a better job off the two guys 

What you need to realise is that the larger firm will use subcontractors They will have a core of joiners apprentices Perhaps a couple of brickies 

But plumbing electrics Plastering tiling roof finish will be subbed out 

The smaller companies haven’t got the work for these The very large companies don’t even employ these trade 

Your two man band will have to be a bit more selective The other company will take whoever is available at the time 

[joe90]

53 minutes ago, nod said:

The other company will take whoever is available at the time 

 

Not if they are good and value their customers.

[nod]

34 minutes ago, joe90 said:

 

Not if they are good and value their customers.

I don’t think they have a lot of choice Exspecially if they are on a deadline 

Thats why all the major players sub vertically everything out 

It would be great to employ three or four gangs of plasters or electricians But they either wouldn’t cope with the workload or you would be paying trades for waiting till work is ready 

 

I do some jobs for small builders

We dry line and skim a five bed house in a week They are tiny jobs and I make 50% more than the commercial work and get paid right away 

Everybody is happy 

Ive a school to start for a local builder next week Around 1500   mtrs of framing birding and taped 

We will have ten days to have it ready for painting He employs two good plasters But they would simply take to long 

Unfortunately it is how the building trade works now 

I’m banking on a recession which would help me and all self builders to plan ahead 

 

All my jobs are on a fixed rate 

But I can’t blame someone who is offered six weeks work at double what I’m paying 

We used to fix plasterboards for couple of quid each Now I pay £1.50 per board for carrying them in With two Ukraine brothers that will load three packs each in a day 

If you get good trades it is more by chance than design 

 

The rates that the two guys are quoting give them room to manoeuvre 

Personally I would rather things take longer and get a better job 

When things go quickly Ie six months you will have little or know control 

The larger company won’t hold things up for a couple of weeks because the tiler of choice is on holiday They will push on 

The two guys will tell you we will get on with Something else It’s only a couple of weeks 

Your a long time looking at it if it’s not just right 

[Ferdinand]

Good to see lots of opinions, even if they disagree with each other. Me - I dunno.

 

It would depend I think on my opportunity to make sure it is on track and adjust as needed, plus the attitude of the contractor to deal with any problems afterwards.

 

Dealing with any situations or problems in-process may require far more concentrated effort for you for a couple of days with Widget Ltd, whilst for Bill and Ben you may be able to have one day to think. Perhaps decide on your own personal flexibility in-crisis?

 

Sooooooooooooo tempted to post the Bucks Fizz vid. But better not. Too traumatic, and just too pre-Ben Elton.

Edited August 6, 2019 by Ferdinand

[gc100]

Thanks all for your thoughts. It's clear there are pros and cons with both:

Widget - +ve: quick, less hands on, known price. -ve: less control, some decisions will be rushed or taken for me.

 

Bill&Bob - +be: quality build,  involved in all decisions and given more time to process. -ve: unknown cost and risk of run away, Slow build time, more stressful.

 

Still not any closer to making a decision!!!

Edited August 6, 2019 by gc100
Spelling

[ToughButterCup]

Good summary @gc100 (above)  . Two thoughts.

• Do you know what's under the ground?
• And you are certain sure of the off-mains drainage permissions and practicalities aren't you? (Why?)

Here's to lots more interesting posts from you about your build!

Good luck

Ian

[joe90]

12 hours ago, gc100 said:

Established local building company with a large team good reputation Fixed quote (subject to change of course). Lets call them Widget Ltd.

 

However @nod an established local building company with a large team may be like the builder I employed, not a major player and a large team need not sub out work to anyone available. Perhaps I was lucky with my local builder but they did it all (apart from the work I did) and were great. @gc100 if I were you I would ask to see work “widget and co” have done and speak to the customers to get a handle on how their  build went. You have to be confident in your decision.

[joe90]

27 minutes ago, gc100 said:

less control, some decisions will be rushed or taken for me.

 

I think this is not necessarily the case, as the customer you have control and why assume decisions may be rushed or taken for you? Neither were true of my builder (fixed price).

[soapstar]

We are coming up to a similar situation, been nearly 5 years in the making now and I just want to get on with the damn thing!

 

We have a choice between a two man band and a local contractor, my feeling is the contractor will not only be quicker but easier to deal with given they do far more builds, and if there are any problems well that's their issue to fix not mine.

 

Realistically at the end of the day how much better can a house be built? As long as you and your architect keeps a daily check on things there shouldn't be any major issues....Thats my thinking at the moment!

[nod]

1 hour ago, joe90 said:

 

However @nod an established local building company with a large team may be like the builder I employed, not a major player and a large team need not sub out work to anyone available. Perhaps I was lucky with my local builder but they did it all (apart from the work I did) and were great. @gc100 if I were you I would ask to see work “widget and co” have done and speak to the customers to get a handle on how their  build went. You have to be confident in your decision.

What ever they tell the customer

Most use subcontractors 

The small firms don’t have the continuity and neither do the large 

The job I’m on at the moment has around 30 plumbing & electrical guys All cards in to one contractor 

They have to be finished in five weeks Where would the building company put all these  same with Plastering tiling roofing painting

Sane with a smaller company 

When the plasterers finish your house they would have to have another waiting 

I get a call 3 houses 3 gangs Finished by the end of next week 

Very difficult to keep the quality 

 

 

[gc100]

4 hours ago, AnonymousBosch said:

Good summary @gc100 (above)  . Two thoughts.

• Do you know what's under the ground?
• And you are certain sure of the off-mains drainage permissions and practicalities aren't you? (Why?)

Here's to lots more interesting posts from you about your build!

Good luck

Ian

 

• No (but its arable land so not too worried)
• All my planning pre-conditions have been approved for sewage drainage - is there something more I'm not aware of via building control or something?

 

[gc100]

8 hours ago, nod said:

What ever they tell the customer

Most use subcontractors 

The small firms don’t have the continuity and neither do the large 

The job I’m on at the moment has around 30 plumbing & electrical guys All cards in to one contractor 

They have to be finished in five weeks Where would the building company put all these  same with Plastering tiling roofing painting

Sane with a smaller company 

When the plasterers finish your house they would have to have another waiting 

I get a call 3 houses 3 gangs Finished by the end of next week 

Very difficult to keep the quality 

 

 

 

Talking to Widget Ltd, the owner actually runs 3 other companies (joiners, M/E, Interiors), they use these companies for an sub-contract work on the build 

[ToughButterCup]

On 06/08/2019 at 13:00, gc100 said:

[...]

All my planning pre-conditions have been approved for sewage drainage - is there something more I'm not aware of via building control or something?

[...]

 

Are you aware of the General Binding Rules ?

[gc100]

9 hours ago, AnonymousBosch said:

 

Are you aware of the General Binding Rules ?

 

Ah thanks. No I wasn't. We have approval to drain into a drainage ditch thats used by the surrounding fields. However the drainage ditches dry up at some point during the summer for a few weeks depending on the weather and it seems I could be caught foul of these rules. Who enforces/checks them?

 

[ToughButterCup]

3 minutes ago, gc100 said:

 

Ah thanks. No I wasn't.

 

Have a read of the GBRs and then PM me. 

 

 

[joe90]

1 hour ago, gc100 said:

 

Ah thanks. No I wasn't. We have approval to drain into a drainage ditch thats used by the surrounding fields. However the drainage ditches dry up at some point during the summer for a few weeks depending on the weather and it seems I could be caught foul of these rules. Who enforces/checks them?

 

 

We drain our treatment plant (Vortex) into a ditch that’s dry for a couple of months by using a rumble drain, accepted by the powers that be.

[Ferdinand]

Decision time.

 

Toss a coin, go with Heads .

[Jeremy Harris]

40 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

Decision time.

 

Toss a coin, go with Heads .

 

Years ago I was on unusual management course (in that it was actually useful) and we had an exercise on decision making.  We were divided into two groups and each group was given an envelope containing something that required a decision to be made within a set time.  The groups were sent off to separate rooms, which included video recording.  One group had to decide how many warheads the UK needed in order to be an effective nuclear deterrent.  The other group had to decide on the ideal size for a garden shed.

 

The group that had to decide on the size of our nuclear deterrent reached a decision well inside the set time.  The group deciding on the size of a garden shed failed to reach a decision, and were still arguing when the time was up.

 

The lesson learned was that big stuff is often much easier to decide on than small stuff.  It's much the same with self-build.  The big decisions, like deciding to buy a plot, are often relatively quick and easy.  What soaks up inordinate amount of time and effort is making the small decisions, like what make of plumbing to use, or which tools to buy.

[ragg987]

On 06/08/2019 at 21:40, gc100 said:

Talking to Widget Ltd, the owner actually runs 3 other companies (joiners, M/E, Interiors), they use these companies for an sub-contract work on the build 

I would check on where the margins are going to lie. E.g. if company A is your contracting company and they want 20% margin, they sub to company B who also want 20% then you are paying a big premium.

[joe90]

Why don’t you get another quote or two for a fixed price, gives you a better idea on price accuracy.