What would be your wishlist for a kitchen/diner?

[Ferdinand]

46 minutes ago, Powerjen said:

Ooh @Ferdinand, you always challenge my thinking and that's good, though I am totally out of my depth with all this but it is an invaluable exercise! So here goes...

 

AIUI that is what Buildhub is all about.

 

You get bombarded with enough vies to challenge you from all sides, including getting answers from you that you had not considered relevant. And you develop a bit of experience, some hinterland outside what you know, and end up in a position with a wider view of your opportunity so that you can make better decisions to get a better house for you.

 

When you feel confident to make those decisions, and able to get them sufficiently right for your project, is the point at which you can move on and take the bits suggested that help, and reject the ones that do not.

 

Essays are welcome if they convey information, because it is quite common that comments come back on the forum, and then the questioner produces a rabbit from their hat which invalidates the base from which people have been thinking.

 

F

[Declan52]

46 minutes ago, Powerjen said:

 

Hi @Declan52 thank you for your input. Wow, that is some space. I have no engineering knowledge but the wall you are saying to remove is the end of the house so load bearing. Would that not make it a nightmare to do and costly?  The oil tank is supposed to be in the garden by the proposed boiler room with an exhaust out of the external wall for the boiler itself. The exhaust for the boiler on your plan would come out of the front of the house by the new front doorway?

It will require a fair amount of work and cost but frees up the complete room. Price it up

Put the boiler out beside the tank in a galvanized house like these.

 

https://www.raygrahams.com/products/119149-galvanised-boiler-house.aspx

Then it's only the feed and return you need to bring into the house. Under no circumstances would I ever ever put an oil burner inside a house. If it leaks your in deep deep shat.

[bassanclan]

I think it might be useful to see what the house looks like currently (layout and photos)

[Ferdinand]

32 minutes ago, bassanclan said:

I think it might be useful to see what the house looks like currently (layout and photos)

 

See the previous thread.

 

Or

 

One Proposal - bits are altered, but the kitchen area seems valid for the purposes of this thread.

 

 

PS The "Warren" I was referring to was entrancing the house through the parents front door, Left into the current master, then into the rear hall - I was looking at the proposal above.

Edited June 13, 2019 by Ferdinand

[Ferdinand]

I think this is roughly what we have once the doors and leantos have gone, and walls as per the plan upthread, leaving the pillar and a pier of garage wall at the bottom. I have left off the wraparound proposal at the back replacing the conservatory (ie windows and doors in that wall can be played with), since it is not built yet. North is to the right.

 

Front to back is about 32'. internal Width of garage + kitchen along front wall is about 22'.

 

Edited June 13, 2019 by Ferdinand

[Powerjen]

21 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

I think this is roughly what we have once the doors and leantos have gone, and walls as per the plan upthread, leaving the pillar and a pier of garage wall at the bottom. I have left off the wraparound proposal at the back replacing the conservatory (ie windows and doors in that wall can be played with), since it is not built yet. North is to the right.

 

Front to back is about 32'. internal Width of garage + kitchen along front wall is about 22'.

 

 

 

Wow @Ferdinand,  thanks for that! Just in response to the warren. the architect wanted the Master Bedroom for my parents and I wanted to use the 'dining room' which is the workshop  as their second bedroom. It is better with the door into the back hall blocked up and if it means I can save 21k not converting the workshop and I can use the money upstairs or on a nice kitchen diner I think it is money better spent... (she says).

 

[Ferdinand]

I think the first piccie in this thread gave a slightly misleading impression that it is nearly square.

[Ferdinand]

4 minutes ago, Powerjen said:

ust in response to the warren. the architect wanted the Master Bedroom for my parents and I wanted to use the 'dining room' which is the workshop  as their second bedroom. It is better with the door into the back hall blocked up and if it means I can save 21k not converting the workshop and I can use the money upstairs or on a nice kitchen diner I think it is money better spent... (she says).

 

My view on your parent's side, which I haven't argued yet, would be to do the through room I talked about with the bedroom off, completely ignore the outhouse until you are all in, and fniish the through room and bedroom off to a standard that will not need updating again.

 

If needed the outhouse at their end could be done without interfering with them and breaking through with one door when they are sent away for a weekend somewhere for a break.

 

I was also going to argue that you should move into the Master bed + 2nd bathroom + existing kitchen to get in quickly, and do this thread-project later, but you seem keen on a posh kitchen diner now ?.

 

Ferdinand

Edited June 13, 2019 by Ferdinand

[Powerjen]

@Ferdinand my concern with the adding more light into the living room and kitchen bit of my parents side would be cash or lack of it and that it would be a short term benefit for my parents and a nice feature for paying punters coming to stay there at the weekend, but I am open to your reasoning. I think your comment about it before made me rethink things though, which is why I am now looking at the kitchen diner for an all inclusive space we can all use as opposed to spreading the money too thinly and not really getting anywhere really nice in the house.

 

As we aren't much further forward since October I am thinking that I will just hire a skip and block off the area we are wanting for my parents and start stripping stuff out in it (living in the bedroom, kitchen and conservatory). I don't need to wait for plans or building regs to remove old plasterboard and repair floorboards etc. At least if I get doing that it will feel like I am doing something useful. We applied for planning permission for a static caravan and only got it approved for whilst the work was done, so we are on a hunt for one of those too.

[Ferdinand]

All fair comment, though taking out a wall like that should only be 2-3k .. others here will have better guestimates.

 

As for the other end, this is a few ideas which are different to what has been posted so may be useful.

 

I started with replacing the garage door with a big window (again not that much money) including patio doors, and putting the boiler and utility room (as small as is practical) next to the bathroom (close to waste pipes etc), and working off where sunlight would be, and leaving to all more open (new  walls cost money).The perambulation around the internal window from the hall to your space seems to me to be a bit crippling on the kitchen ... just put a door there and make it glass.

 

I would also also look very seriously at ASHP and carefully consider the specification of the fabric, most of which you have to do now.

 

I agree with you on the porch .. far more coherent an entrance than that placement of the boiler room, oil boiler apart.

 

[Powerjen]

@Ferdinand, cor, you really have given me a lot to think about there! Going to go away and digest it (and the two doughnuts I've just caught myself eating too).

 

Thank you.

[Onoff]

That I come in every night to the apricot, honey and vegetable tagine that SWMBO dished up tonight...

[AliG]

Hi @Powerjen

 

I have just read your original post.

 

It sounds like you really want to do something for your parents which is great, but I just don't know if your timescales are realistic.

 

Have you confirmed that the work is PD? Checking the rules, dormers on the road frontage of a house are not PD, not is work less than 0.3M from the edge of the roof. I really like what the architect wants to do upstairs but I don't see how all those changes to the roof would be PD. It could be worth checking with the council whilst you are thinking about things.

 

Assuming not PD and considering the amount of work to the roof, I think you'd be lucky to be finished by next summer. Looking at your QS estimates, I do not think that they are as excessive as suggested. If you are employing a man contractor to do things then it is not cheap. A lot depends on the spec of the ensuite, kitchen, windows etc. I would also be worried that in an old building with stone walls, extra costs could easily come up once you start digging around.

 

If you want things done quickly and cheaply, would you consider just doing the downstairs work at the moment? This is probably faster, cheaper and PD. 

 

I know you have a tight budget, but what is your view on your return on investment. I had a quick look and would guess that house values in Dumfrieshire are £150-200 a square foot, so for example converting the outbuilding to a dining room may not actually pay for itself. You said that you want the second bedroom if one of your parents gets sick, this is quite a personal decision, but I suspect that if they are that sick they won't be in the house for long and the second bedroom may not be necessary. Admittedly it is not that difficult to do, it is just costly.

 

I would consider an ASHP and doing away with oil fired CH. It may make things easier. Do you intend your parents' space/future let hot have a separate boiler and heating system?

 

Is there space to add a carport at the north side of the house? It seems a shame to shade the south side. Could it replace the outbuilding there? The downside at this end is that access into the house is not easy unless you have the dining room and go through there.

 

In terms of the ground floor, I think your parents' area works, and the one or two bed option is down to you. I would make sure that the en suite layout works for old people.

 

I think @Ferdinand's layout is the cheapest way of getting an open plan room that works well. If you move the carport to the other side then you could combine the two windows on the south side to get more light in. You could also make the porch area larger and put the utility room there getting a larger lounge area. If you want a carport there you could make the porch/utility room the back of the carport.

 

 

[Onoff]

5 hours ago, AliG said:

but I suspect that if they are that sick they won't be in the house for long

 

Define long? Try having one with dementia. Seems like they live for ever. I think 7 years was quoted to me. Poxy disease.

[Ferdinand]

Looking at it again, you may be able to get something services wise (eg Consumer Unit for electrics) in the corner of the kitchen, because quite a lot might fit in the thickness of the wall where the existing door to the hall is as a shallow services cupboard. That is a good central point, the kitchen is the place with the most electrics, and the core of the house is actually relatively compact. I think this is  avery beneficial idea.

 

(On a more esoteric note, personally I would be doing a separate Electrical Consumer unit for the "flat", just in case I wanted to eg let it out later with a separate electric meter / supply, or split them and sell one off - making sure that such a unit could be connected to the front easily in future. But I am an LL in the day job and think about provisioning for that type of thing in particular. I would ideally split the heating systems too, but I do not think that is anything like as straightforward).

 

Hmmm.

 

F

 

Edited June 14, 2019 by Ferdinand

[Powerjen]

Hi @AliG Thank you for your detailed reply. The architects plans were a variety of options for us to cost out and then see what was worth doing and what we could afford. The first floor extension which went about the original ridge height would need planning, as would the front former windows and extending the roof out above the garage knew kitchen diner). Since this is taking far longer than we had ever hoped I am determined to only do things allowed under PD and it seems we can afford to do these things that need planning anyway. I can't see anywhere that there is a limit to the amount of PD you can do to your house in one go as long as you stick to the guidelines for each element.

 

I think all we can afford to do upstairs is to try put a dormer on where the first floor extension was imagined (above my parents kitchen). I need to fit a superkingsize in there. I hope I can. It would cost too much to move the current upstairs bathroom into the Hip roof so it will just get a makeover. Hoping to be able to remove the wall to the left of the stairs as you go up and have an open plan bedroom with maybe a door for privacy at the bottom of the staircase. 

 

I think we just have to bite the bullet on the fact we might not get the money back we are spending. My parents are helping cost wise. We don't envisage moving and have always planned to do an equity release scheme later on as we have no kids to leave it to. We couldn't live here if we had to share it long term so would never separate the two parts of the house. Even having it as a possible holiday let makes me sweaty. We are moving the boiler and HW cylinder out of my parents side of the house so it's away from there if we did let it. It just seemed easier to keep all the heating and electrics as one big house (and on our side). But we need to future proof it so if we need to let it out we can. 

 

As the house is down hill of the garden around it and quite shaded at the southern end I am not too worried about the carport being there. The kitchen diner will be brighter than it is now by opening out into the outside wall and with a roof light or two but appreciate your comments. 

 

I will look at the Heat Pump. Thank you. ☺️

[Powerjen]

Hi @Ferdinand

 

Thank you for the plan and the ideas about the separate wiring/heating. We have thought about the separate heating and electric but we would never sell or let our parents bit long term because we are social hermits so hopefully it isn't something we will need, but I appreciate your expertise and advice. We dont really want to have to let it out as a holiday let but it will be nice to have the option if we need to do it or if my husband can't stand me anymore we could live in separate bits

 

I am thinking alot about your plan, definitely given me something to think about.  Thank you.  I think I am right in saying that we can put all the things we would like on a plan for Building Regs and get the ball rolling and then we can change things around a bit as long as we adhere to the Regs.  So if we can't afford to them them, we won't.  We didn't do the planned dormer on our old house (though we needed planning permission then) and when we went for our completion certificate we just had to change the drawings to exclude them and everyone was happy.

 

I know nothing about ASHP (I had to look up what it meant!). No doubt there are good posts on here about it so will go do some research.  We have a field next to the house (South side), are ASHP better than GSHP? I think I know a very small bit about GSHP, it is when there are coils of pipe laid in the ground where they draw in heat from the soil which then get used in the house?!

 

Some good news is that I think I have found a local builder chap who is interested in doing the work. Says he is happy for me to labour for him which will help save some money. Seems a genuine chap and I am quite handy so will just have to sacrifice the time it will take to do but it will cost less if I do as much as I can and project manage it so I get separate trades in rather than paying a main contractor to do it. As we are so far away from civilisation we would be paying a premium to get people here long term, this builder is 20 mins away so can't get any more local  

[Ferdinand]

17 hours ago, Powerjen said:

I know nothing about ASHP (I had to look up what it meant!). No doubt there are good posts on here about it so will go do some research.  We have a field next to the house (South side), are ASHP better than GSHP? I think I know a very small bit about GSHP, it is when there are coils of pipe laid in the ground where they draw in heat from the soil which then get used in the house?!

 

Let's talk about heating systems and insulation.

 

AIUI, GSHP is now really a niche solution, and ASHP more widely applicable. The complexities with GSHP are that you have to dig that damn great hole, that the special chemical to fill it all is pricey, and that it is more complex to maintain.

ASHP, othh, is aiui a lot simpler and is more widely used. There are others on here who have had it for years. I have not done one yet since I have not done a reno in the last 12 months. The next one will have it. Listen to other bh people on this.

 

I had a thread on BH here looking into ASHP for refurbished houses for rentals, in search of simplicity and getting rid of gas - which discussed some issues similar to yours.

 

Both ASHP and GSHP attract govt subsidies under the RHI (https://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/scotland/grants-loans/renewables/renewable-heat-incentive), which could be £1000 a year or so in your case for 7 years (guestimate) - based on how much CO2 you save and your current EPC certificate. Crucial - get your evaluation done at the right time because if you improve the place first you will be saving less CO2 and will get less grant. You need to navigate the system to your optimum whilst following the rules. Discussed by me here, and read the comments from @joth:

 

My impression is that you need to understand it, and then it is robust and fine. There are little wrinkles like you can get one that runs backwards for cooling in the summer. Given you do not know what your heating demand will be, and eg whether you will be going into the roof, then I would be leaning towards a bigger one - which is what will be specced if you evaluate before restoring much.

 

For you, one issue is how much you will improve the fabric, and whether you go for ufh (underfloor heating) or rads. That is something we have not talked about, but ufh will struggle with a poorly insulated building as at the top end it runs at a lower temp and gives out less absolute that radiators. Hence why what you do with your walls floor roof matters.

 

My view is that for now you need decide about floor and walls, and also think about roof insulation (but I would just repair the roof and park that until you are in). My comment would be to do a very good job on the floor with at least 100mm celotex / PIR between the joists,  to give a u-value to enable ufh (issue is losing heat downwards). U-value would be about 0.19-0.20. That then gives a good base so you can think about the others, which look to be more tricky to decide.

 

Walls would need to be internally or externally insulated - Internal now (50-75mm of celotex - approaching minimum newbuild standard) or perhaps External later. In a place with smallish rooms it is a tricky call because 3-4" can matter. But if it is solid walls you will need something to improve it significantly. External is expensive (your eyes, they will water), but a far better technical solution if done properly on a suitable house - needs careful thought. Internal is more established. Personally I would go for internal now, as that is also something that you can probably help on.

 

(On a side note if you are improving your fabric then ventilation also must have attention, as if your house will no longer be horribly leaky you risk condensation).

 

With underfloor insulation or heating, you also have the issue of those two solid-floored rooms and how you do those. My answer would be to put more insulation on top of all of it, plus a floating floor, run your electrics in channels around the internal walls under the floating floor, and use one of the overlay ufh systems (eg Wunda). You then trim all your doors by about 2-2.5 inches. The electrics underfloor worked on my latest refurb, and I will do it again, but it is a little unusual. I have not yet tried it with the ufh, as I was not satisfied that I knew enough about ASHP.  I do not know anyone else who has tried this.

 

Another way to tackle the concrete-floored rooms would be perimeter insulation installed outside the walls going down the face of the wall about 18" to 2 feet. That works (and you only have 2 rooms with short outside walls) if you have a water table below that but conventional workmen may quirk their eyebrows.

 

So lots more to think about ... some of it before you actually do extensive new works 'cos you won't get another chance.

 

Ferdinand

(Everything on this thread is general advice /education, not recommendations - obviously - since we are all sitting in timbuktoo with personal opinions not having looked at your house in the flesh).

 

Edited June 17, 2019 by Ferdinand

[Powerjen]

Morning @Ferdinand

 

Thank you for your great post.  We have some experience of UFH as we put it in our old house, which was a complete mistake because it was a suspended floor and the cowboy builders didn't do it right and the Thermaflow boiler we put in as we couldn't even get oil to the house wasn't up to the job so we had to take the whole tiled floor up downstairs and try redo it. It has definitely put us off UFH, but we don't have the same floor set up here. My parents house is permanently boiling so I am not sure if UFH would give them the heat they need once they have moved in here which was why we had thought we would just go with radiators?

 

I was reading up about ASHP and see they can work with radiators. We generally have double 900 x 600 radiators and I read on a post here that someone had installed that size with an ASHP (though not sure how successful it was). We will have a big demand for hot water as my Dad (and I) get relief from medical issues with hot baths, am I right in saying that an ASHP stops doing the heating to provide the hot water? Our Thermaflow boiler wasn't capable of doing the two at the same time, run a bath with the heating on and you didnt have much hot water. We had always hoped to get two wood burning stoves hooked up to the heating/hot water and will have to look up if this would work with ASHP. I see there are (were) interest free loans you can get for them which might be useful too.

 

The energy rating of the house when we bought it was something like 25, that probably isn't comprehensive enough for subsidies payments, that was 18 months ago. It doesn't help that unless you have mains gas then you are basically the devil incarnate as far as the test is concerned!  We did a lot of work insulating our old house so we are wanting to do as much as we can in this one.  The internal stone walls are boarded out but don't know yet if there is any insulation behind them.  There is rockwool in the attic rooms so that can be replaced with something better. We have been going round fixing the drafts. Mainly in the kitchens behind the units and have put extra draft proofing round the sash windows. It has made a big difference.  The house had stood empty for a couple of years, when we viewed the house it had a nice ambient temp and seems to stay cool in the summer and vaguely warm in the winter, much better than our old 1940's last house.

[caliwag]

A very useful site to visit is greenbuildingforum.co.uk populated by real techy guys and gals and full of discussion about the pros and cons of ASHPs and MVHR systems

[SteamyTea]

6 hours ago, Powerjen said:

I was reading up about ASHP and see they can work with radiators. We generally have double 900 x 600 radiators and I read on a post here that someone had installed that size with an ASHP (though not sure how successful it was).

Not as simple as that.

Generally a heat pump works at a lower temperature than an ordinary boiler.  That is why the radiators have a larger surface area.

If the installation was gas or oil and the radiators were sized correctly, then new ones, with a larger area, would still be needed.

 

Edited June 17, 2019 by SteamyTea

[Powerjen]

2 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

Not as simple as that.

Generally a heat pump works at a lower temperature than an ordinary boiler.  That is why the radiators have a larger surface area.

If the installation was gas or oil and the radiators were sized correctly, then new ones, with a larger area, would still be needed.

 

Thanks @SteamyTea of course it was never going to be that simple. I doubt the radiators have been correctly sized. I guess I will have to work it out for myself. Thanks again.

[SteamyTea]

The radiator manufacture should have a data sheet on what the power output is for different temperatures.  Good place to start.

[Powerjen]

3 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

The radiator manufacture should have a data sheet on what the power output is for different temperatures.  Good place to start.

Thank you @SteamyTea ☺️