BartW

Hi, This may have to go into another part of the forum, although it is totally UFH related. Basically, three bathrooms in the house will have electric UFH. Now: - each UFH matt will have a floor probe for temperature. Assume 10k Ohm @ 25C temp. - I am trying to avoid having a multitude of different controls, thus - I am installing Loxone Miniserver, and no separate room stat for the bathrooms Is my thought process correct and will I get the below to work? - temp probe to be connected to Digital Input (range 6V to 24V). - Loxone picks up voltage signal affected by resistance that modulates upon temperature (example curve here: https://www.northstarsensors.com/calculating-temperature-from-resistance ) - programming sequence turns Loxone relay output on / off. This could be something like "IF volts reading across the input >= 12V, switch relay ON". Question: - how do I establish voltage drop across the resistor? And how would I translate it into the programming? I am dark in the woods... Thanks! Bart

Hi, Me trolling again, about MVHR now... Quick and simple: - Zehnder Q350 - Loxone shebang - Zehnder Lan C (for app prettiness) - Zehnder Options box (for options ) Focusing on the Options: - I can see the wiring schematics allow boost switches all grouped together on one set of pins. Great! Does that mean that I could use logical signals from Loxone room stats and presence sensors (in any algorithm I imagine) that would trigger the brain (Loxone mini server) and close a selected dry relay of choice, which in turn would send a volt free signal to the Options Box and switch on the boost? - the box comes with many more "options" (I am abusing the word, I know...): I could not find any further information about the meaning of all of those other icons above. One suggests there is a kitchen hood. Could I use that to send the signal from the kitchen cooking hood to apply boost? Mind racing, sorry! And if none of the above gets any further use, then is there a way of sending a "boost" signal whilst omitting the Options Box completely? (and saving £300?) PS. Q350, as well as Options Box, and Lan C come with an Ethernet port. I can appreciate Cat6 is to be plugged into Lan C box, but could it equally be plugged into any of the other two? Or would they also need a separate connection? Many thanks! Bart

Hi, I am having the Q350 and Comfo Post delivered for our self build, and while the schematics seem plain and simple: I wonder how to best connect and control the Comfo Post here. The heating system will be driven by ASHP (Vaillant Aero Therm Plus with UniTower) with a cooling option (resistor). How do I best control the flow through the ComfoPost: - as it happens I am siting a UFH manifold in the loft right next to where this unit is going. Could it be a good idea to either tap into the supply pipe to the manifold - or perhaps add a separate zone / port to the manifold and run off of that? The downside is that if this local manifold gets no call for heat "pump operation" there would be no flow at all regardless of whether the zone be open. The benefit of the latter would be ability to open and close the circuit. Also the loop would be super short and would run through a pump that would be fairly local there. Or I could leave this port "always open" and assume that when I run heating, I would automatically have demand for additional heat through the vents. In reverse, i.e. for cold air the same would happen with cold air being added in. Otherwise, how would one logically control this above scenario? Thanks! Bart

Thanks guys, So as I suspected the shared manifold at the top floor is being favoured and deals with the air locking issue rather well. Many thanks! Bart

Hi, We are currently in the process of self building, and have got UFH designed on all three floors. GF is living kitchen dine (all open ) + utility + guest FF is 3 bedrooms and 2 bathrooms SF is gym only My question relates to UFH on FF and SF. Do I go for separate manifolds with piping and pumps on those two floors, or can they share one manifold? Gym only adds 22m2 so around so less than 200m with flow and return (i.e. 2 ports / valves / zones / whichever way you read it). FF is 72m2 but excludes bathrooms from, as they will be electric UFH, so really just 64m2, i.e. around 500m of pipes. The options I considered (not necessarily favoured all of them): - separate manifolds for both floors - doubles up the pump and manifold / ancillaries cost, so adds about £300 - £400. + supply pipes more complex / more to run - one manifold to share on FF level - optimal for pipe runs on the first floor with height drop from the manifold to floor within 400mm - 500mm. Most cost effective, but runs a risk of air locks in the SF loops that would run from here. Also, I assume I would need to make sure whatever pump is capable of pushing water up by 3metres. Would an in-line "proprietary" bleed valve solution be a thing to consider, or are we into risk of leaks at couplings and junctions? - one manifold to share on SF level - addresses risk of air locks in the gym. But less optimal, as all my flow and returns need extending by at least 3 - 5metres each to account for the drop from the upper floor. My FF hallway will remain unheated as no pipes would coincide in this area (hallway alcove is where the manifold would otherwise sit. Your opinions are, as always, very welcome and valued Thanks Bart

thanks, it’s that or a smaller one with a fixed window to the side. Surprisingly another £2k on top. i wish I could decide on both the electrics and the door right after I have nearly finished the build and ready to move in 😆

They have gone up a lot. And the opening is rather big @ 1500 wide x 2440 high. I just did not expect it. Perhaps why it hurts. And the handle. Looks like a tree branch, but still. I am buying a door. Not a car!

Thanks, will contact them for a quote. It's my idea of a door... Long story short, I could have a solidoor for £3k. But this one is a loooovely pivot door from UrbanFront, made in black oak with irregular grooves to perfectly complement my charred timber cladding all around. Oh, it also comes with finger print thing which I might ditch, and a £2k handle (just for the bloody handle!). Funnily enough, survey or installation NOT included...

and this is exactly my thought process here.

I take that’s a double yes? somehow I have been struggling to find one elsewhere. In an ideal world I would get some somfy motors, but they closest one I find in the uk is this one, although RTS suggests it is wireless: https://www.poweredblinds.co.uk/powered-tube/ or this, but it wants a 12v power adapter, which suggests the controls are still to be done via radio: https://www.poweredblinds.co.uk/sonesse-28rts-replacement/ it’s broad terms, but I used to have a yamaha multiroom AV receiver in the flat we used to own. Prewired for it, and started using only to learn it could only send select signals to zone 2. Then tried something else only to learn that BT source on zone 1 would not allow a pre-installed spotify app to play in zone 2. It is a little mishap on a basic level, and perhaps one that taught me to do more research on the next project. I just fear that maybe I am trying to hard? If money was no object, I would probably list all my wants and employ someone to take my money, then demand it work as promised. Because I am doing it all myself and on the budget, I just hope and keep my fingers crossed it will deliver. Spending extra £15k on electrics is something I had not planned for (and technically could do away with), just like a £12k front door that I maybe don’t need. But could I bother concluding 12 months down the line that a three storey house is more convenient when you don’t have to run to the top floor when you are out of the door, and late for the tunnel, but triple checking that all lights, heating, doors are shut… modern day living. Yes, I know and am quite frankly embarrassed to talk about it, once I see a daily portion of the sky news.

Thanks! I will read about the other two and compare, but really good hint. has it got an app?

Fair point, and it has crossed my mind, but cost to put in UFH for the gym is about £500 at this stage. Slightly more if I consider hi spec controls. two pretty heaters capable of doing the same later would be similar money. The gym room will be insulated for sound. This comes with a certain level of heat blocking too. On the flipside, the two bits of glazing cover 13m2. That is about 30% of walls, of which four walls, three are external ones. one thing I could simplify is to move first floor manifold to the loft at gym level and merge the two. My cost for the gym ufh would halve due to omitting of the extra pump, valves and some brassware. The pump is capable of 8m head. It would only need to carry 3m vertically whilst having loops rather medium length. hmm…

Ok, so I have SensoComfort and Sensonet on my order, but I might have to review. But I think I get it. You would simply use VR71 as a wireless control centre to send triggers to the UFH manifolds to start the pump, and send a trigger to the pump? Much like traditional UFH with respective thermostats + wiring centre? (ish?) I have, and am a bit nowhere still with it. I appreciate different type hubs come with different UIs. This then leads to it become another Loxone, just with a lot more sweat required. One big benefit for KNX seems to be cost of particular accessories, and the fact that there are a lot of manufacturers making components. And of course, the fact that KNX is a common layer for many solutions I am considering, whereas with Loxone I would need the £600 accessory to make the two speak. Oh, and depending how realistic, if the Loxone hub fails I loose everything to include lights, etc. If KNX hub fails, all will still work because it is decentralised right?

Is Unifi something you have already got, hence pursuing this solution, or are they simply a lot better than, say Hikvision, for example? Did you mean this? https://shop.loxone.com/enuk/nano-2-relay-tree.html Yes, this sounds more enticing. And equally, I am guessing I could surrender volume up / down, and use them for other light circuits? Equally, then, if I go for Tap5 from Faradite I could give any of the 5 switches different logics? (I appreciate these being cheaper would need twice as many wires and 5 times as many DIs on the hub itself). Literally that. I basically stipulate £150 for motor only, and £100 per relay. Blinds are fairly inexpensive if manual. I am led to believe you just take out the tubular manual mechanism and swap it for the motor. I think I was looking at likes of this: https://shop.loxone.com/enen/solidline-air-10nm.html Yes, if the price difference is insignificant (whatever I mean by that, right?), then Loxone is the way forward. I am just concerned I will start off with certain level of expectations, and learn half way through the install that it will not materialise, unless I spend a lot more.

I am intrigued. So AroTherm / Unitower manual lists a couple of add-on parts that effectively allow splitting heating into more than one circuit. Is that what you are referring to? It's the last page in the schematics page below: https://midsummerwholesale.co.uk/pdfs/arotherm-plus-schematic.pdf Yet that splits between UFH and rads, rather than 2 UFHs. I also have another floor with just a single room in it. That call for another manifold. Unless I move the FF manifold to Second Floor and drop pipe runs into the rooms. A bit more pipe, but eliminates one circulating pump, some brassware and so on. Saves energy too at 60W-150W per hour which has some meaning, right? I can sort of see this happening. I just need to unmarry my idea... I am not sure I would want to add yet another sublayer to the whole thing...

Ok, this looks simple enough, and sounds like I could integrate it easily, so good shout, thanks! I think most NVRs come with external trigger outputs that can be programmed in if a particular zone is entered. This could be email push, or low voltage analog signal that supposedly could be connected to analog IO on Loxone? Noted on Cat6 and Coax, also the POE extenders. Yes, I think that is the plan. I since realised Loxone sell a blinds motor relay, but again multiplied by number of blinds, a simple KNX relay could work very well here? Whilst I can see the blinds being controlled from the wall, the music source would first need to be selected. Skipping tracks and controlling volume from the wall I would find grossly inconvenient. Thus lack of use for me. Another challenge is that top floor gym has a dual aspect and individual blinds in that room. This would either call for two switches (of which one only controlling the blinds), or them being grouped. Again, One of the blinds shades over fixed windows, the other one does it over the sliding door onto the roof terrace... Simple thought process here again was use of retractive switches with mid position, again easily adapted into KNX protocol (am I being boring?) Blind controls sadly... Heating, as discussed elsewhere but yes... Audio is easy, and as you say, I can figure it out later. But almost definite to be independent solution. I meant mix of independent things rather than a centralised base system. So: - use Sonos app for sound - Zehnder app for ventilation - Vaillant app for heat / Wunda for UFH controls? - Somfy for blinds - and so on They all allow certain level of automation, just not allowing to trigger each other, if that makes sense.

Thanks! So the house is a TF construction that we are slowly building as we speak. Thermal envelope is designed to 0.15u Value. I have probably overkilled the roof a little, so that is probably a bit better. The whole house will be run from a 7kW Vaillant AroTherm Plus with UniTower. Solar PV available for surplus discharge, etc. The reason we wanted the rooms at different temps is to give flexibility to the occupants. Master Bedroom is the one that is likely to be lived in for some time forward, then Bed 2, and so on. We are a young "growing" family still. Downstairs is mainly open and that will have a lot of residual heat all around. Guest Bedroom will double as an office, and we would like that to be a tad cooler to aide working. Top floor Gym will get used either morning, or evening. We just don't want to cook the house 24/7 when only minor parts are likely to get used, and in different ways / dynamics. Wunda Trade smart heating or tado was going to be a go-to, but then I decided that I could do things smarter. Say, one room + presence sensor per room would allow controlling of: - lights (when one leaves the room and forgets to switch things off) - heating (to pick up temp from the sensor) - MVHR (to pick up CO2 and humidity from the said sensor) - ability to control whilst out - and all the usual things I am just trying to build the infrastructure in such a way that I would be able to smartly automate it, and forget about it, but be able to conveniently override when I need to. For the above reasons KNX is starting to sound more attractive (bar learning to programme it), because most things are KNX compatible, just not Loxone ready. Zehnder MVHR will communicate with it, I am likely to be able to build a simple algorithm for heating using some Chinese relays from Alibaba, and if I really want to I could add 1Home integration and have it all sing and dance with Apple Home Kit. Elaborate, I know, and I am sorry.

Hi, I am reading more and more into the whole smart home thing and am now diving into the depths of other logics that could replace the expensive parts of the system. (KNX is another system that I am considering for the build, but let's leave this one for yet another thread). For now: With Loxone UFH actuators being £79 + VAT each, and me needing 12no of them, that is a whooping £950 + VAT for just actuators. I appreciate these connect directly to tree, and come with their own addresses, etc, so easier to programme. Now, my UFH split (across 3 floors and 3 manifolds) is: - Top Floor Gym (2 loops / actuators) - FF Master (2 loops / actuators) - FF Bed 2 (2 loops) - FF Bed 3 (2 loops) - GF Guest (1 loop) - Open Living / Dining / Kitchen (3 loops) Surely I could use standard £2 actuators, link them up in twos and threes, and run them straight off the Miniserver's relay outputs, or even relay extension? Actuators are merely rated @ 2W / 230V, and nominal current draw. Am I missing something? Thanks Bart

sounds like scuba diving to someone who has hardly got grasp of snorkling…

Hi, I have read your thread back to back. my only thing with sonos is that it works flawlessly. I use old gen 1 and 2 amps and standard passive ceiling speakers. I use sonos bridge to send controllable signal to my soundbar. Functionality is very neat and one does not even have to use the sonos app for playback. I have used Verisure alarm for years now. Fully monitored and acted upon by a call centre. Loxone alarm was a consideration, but if sh*t goes down when I am abroad, all I will get is additional stress of knowing but being able to do nothing.

Thanks, as you could probably sense from my other post, I am focusing on the money vs value aspect. sonos is well tested and proven to work. Loxone was going to be just a neatly integrated solution in the DIN cupboard. I don’t care about it talking to me when come home, I don’t need a centralised alarm clock and so on. My smoke alarm system is going to be Hush Active as it needs to be of a certain category. There are certain things I am evaluating right now, and hoping to establish the true need for a loxone system. at the moment, it seems I would benefit from having centrally controlled / adaptable: - lights - heating (ans to a degree mvhr) - blinds

Hi, As above, how many Spotify users can play their tunes simultaneously in their respective rooms? Sonos in the current house allows everybody to enjoy their own sound, and I wonder if the level of integration is going to be similar if I go for Miniserver for the new house. Many thanks! Bart

Hi, Thanks for looking. This is just a preamble to a barrage of questions regarding smart home electrics. Basically, I am trying to decide whether fully integrated smart home is for me. Here is my quick rundown of what I need, and how I see integration: - smoke alarms - this needs to be upgraded standalone system that is Grade C category LD1, so no way would it be integrated with anything smart. - CCTV - same as the above. I can't see it being part of the smart system. It will be just 4 external IP cams with POE and NVR recorder. Nothing fancy. Separate app controls, I would imagine. - TV - I initially thought HD Base T, but concluded that each of the TVs will just have Freeview, and a choice of a dongle(s) like Amazon Fire and Apple TV. We are not massive TV people, and this is all we need. - Sockets - nothing fancy obviously. and nothing else. - Internet - one router connected to OFNL + some hard wired wifi extenders around the house, hidden in ceilings, or storages. - AV Hub - there is only need for one. And that is in the Living Room. It will have a soundbar and a hardwired subwoofer. Or maybe some speakers in the furniture. Now, here is where my dilemmas start: - smart blinds - it would have been Somfy Tahoma with its own app. All set once and optionally shouted at via Alexa configured through IFTTT. If I choose Likes of Loxone, then I would need 11 x blinds motors @ around £200 + VAT each. I imagine I would need Relay extension. Can I control blinds up and down by a simple DC reverse, or would this be two channels per blind motor, and thus A LOOT of relay units? - smart heating - it could be Wunda Trade smart actuators, hub, and room stats. Or I could buy Loxone ones @ £79 + VAT each. I would need 14 ports. That is a lot of actuators, and equally even more relays and extensions... Am I right in saying the temperature control could be had by - MVHR - can I somehow integrate that? I have a Zehnder Q350 with ComfoPost12 coming. Can I send triggers from movement sensors in bathrooms via a relay in Loxone to switch on boost? Does Humidity sensor in the super expensive Loxone switches allow me to pick up a reading through DI / tree, and assign signal to a relay output if RHI goes above a certain figure? - around the house speakers - There would be 11 speakers around the house, and these could be seperate Sonos amps (I would buy used ones), or Loxone Miniserver + some stereo extensions, and of course speakers. - Lighting - The plan is to use non-smart lamps and spotlights, as well as 12/24V drivers for LED tapes. Loxone Tree switches (especially the Pure) look really sexy. But am I right in thinking that @ £234 + VAT I am essentially buying a single (1 gang) switch? What if I need a 3 gang? And slave units by the bed for his/ hers / spotlights / LED? That sounds like a lot of switches per room, right? And if I consider Faradite Tap-5, then that's 5 digital inputs per switch. Time that @ number of rooms, and I am starting to create a control room rather than DIN cupboard for all of the "hub" gubbins. Am I missing something here? Whilst I can swallow £3k for the blinds, £1500 for heating controls, and another £2k for audio, without even doing the proper maths I arrive at a whooping figure of about £10k for lighting alone, EXCLUDING light fittings. Am I being mad to even consider??? Help please? I am starting to arrive at a conclusion that perhaps individual "mini-smart" solutions are just as capable. Although, as clear from the above, I can't think of one solution that would be good for lighting and dimming. I guess I should have formed my subject question more to the tune of "is it worth spending sooo much money on this". I am not super intelligent when it comes to building electronics from scratch, but I can kind of see that I could almost write myself a list of algorithms that I would like certain things around the house to do automatically. No, I don't even know where to start with Raspberry PI... Thoughts please? 1st fix time as soon as mid Jan'23! Thanks! Bart

As above, Peacock specialise in this and are approved with most warranty companies. budget around £400 - £500 for it. All retrospective, they don’t care about photos of the work, visits etc, literally taking your money and a punt, then give you the cover.

But would the way I have done it be ok?