zoothorn

This I do understand/ that's helpful, nice & clear dpmiller. but my point is why can't designers have the user in mind as priority, not themselves: if so they call this dial something else practical/ useful but not 'input' which even now still means nothing to me. 'Stored energy' might be a start, but even with a said min to max dial, I still have no direct indication of the ammount of heat that'll come out. All I want, is to know how much heat comes out, of any heater. Its SO page 1. If I buy a car, bang in front of me is how flippin fast its going: I dont expect to have to find this out, by instead having to work out xyz, bc it hasn't got a speedometer. That's abysmal design. Just tell me how fkn fast already! = tell me the heat output!

Ok guys thanks so much for explaining, I really do need pg1 car analogies to understand these two dials. But honestly if I can't get my head around them, I've little faith my folks or most elderly (oap) folks can. Afaict if I want simply say no. "4" heat (on a std dial) I have to guage, from experience alone, what this might equate to on the "input" dial, but in advance of when I want it to happen. Then I have another dial which expends the reserve Ive set by the input dial rapidly (so how do I ever know how much reserve is left?). Nope still not getting it- if its mine its unplugged & thrown out the window! I just cannot understand them.. I just hope my folks can (maybe it'll click with them now, & you've helped them out, if not me). For heavens sake tho designers why not just put a "Heat 1-10" on?! Much appreciated. zoot

Yes re. the ground slab: I was thinking some floor insulation, but 50mm of *** instead of the usual 100mm. *** is a material extra-good at insulating, trying to find what it was in my book. Any idea/ ring any bells? Every 50mm is critical so low my house beams/ main room is etc: if the lower room's cramped especially headroom.. I'll kick myself for not pinching any extra inch I could have. What's the sensible limit going slab -down- do you think? 1 step down is fine (existing plan) but 2 steps ok? bearing in mind I have a 70 yr old digging my trenches, 65 yr old doing the groundwork, both experienced & capable tho (£alot less than my builder's groundwork I'm sure).

Hi Peter, the intermediate floor is no problem to insulate, I was going to make sure thick here anyway (as room below cold). So yur point here, unless I'm mistaken, is to allow for extra thickness between the floors, but, that maybe I can go 'thinner' on the ground floor thickness as it can be classed as ban unheated space (I'm not sure if this is your very point, or part of your point).

Well horses for courses yes, but its not about not having it explained correctly either: you explain it, but still I don't know why the design of this has no HEAT 1-10 dial, but an 'input' dial (seemingly instead but still I dont know if to replace the heat output dial.. one of them has to be or you cannot control the heat coming out) which you need to wade through a ton of technical info to understand what its for. That is plain & simple bad design. Any heater should have a heater dial min to max, or 1-10. If not then its crap- simple as that. Every other heater does. Its like a car having no fkn steering wheel, or a racehorse with no legs. Imagine sitting on a horse, then finding out its got no legs on. or its legs come out sideways I dont fkn know..

Hi PeterW- I'll put a panel heater in top room. If by BRegs rule I have to have min 50mm of floor (slab) insulation (or if not that's what I'll go for) & the TF walls will have insulation.. sound rockwool I want in room1.. then I don't need heating in here. Heating's an addition once built- the priority at the moment while I wait for a quote, is the design.

Thanks for your explanation- I'll go over it & try to understand over the wknd. What I cannot get, is how a dial called 'input' is helpful for, say an oap. They couldn't understand, or be expected to understand what you describe above. They want -& should have on their heater, whatever sort- a dial which says HEAT 1-10. If instead, they (or me- I still don't understand) have a dial saying 'input'.. they don't know what to do with it, no idea, apart from told 'just forget it & set it midway'. So, it might not be ther accurate description of the dial's actual function.. but could it have a "working title" of HEAT 1-10?? or is this just a no-no-no way of trying to decipher it? if not, I'm almost to the point of giving up trying to understand what its for.

Update: still waiting on builder quote..! doing N.M.Ammendment for 1 velux (far side), 25cm extra L.. & new balcony idea*. Re-think on 2 things. 2 steps 'down' to the lower room (1 before) reason: position of the ceiling/ floor relative to the upper room's internal height critical: now a collared ceiling in here, so I need to shift floor down a peg to retain decent room height (= also a step down into here, from house bedroom.. I quite like idea of). As room1 below's internal H is less critical, I still need it not to have cramped headroom. A tricky one to get divide right. So, is shifting the room1 groundwork floor down 2 steps (1 before) ok.. any major groundwork problem? *New balcony idea: wood steps up to wood balcony for french windows. Benefits: 1) doors open out to aid room2 space, 2) breaks up overall 'box' look (steps up room1 door side, turn R onto balcony?), 3) fab mini seaty area. I asked PP if this would need rme esubmit PP "no, just a NMA- put on with other 2 minor things".

So, could this input dial be called as it were 'heat output' then? I'm still confused as to why there's a dial called input, that's one of two for the user. If I explained what you have to me above, to a user, 99% wouldn't have a clue what you are talking about (me included- I cannot understand kWh).. so they, & me have no idea still what the dial is -practically- for. First I thought these were design simplicity, now I'm thinking they're design lunacy.

Actually ST I'm not asking from a repair pov (could 100% fix a stuck flap or change an element, 80% replace the WW resistor) I'm just trying to work them out for me, & maybe for my folks. If they can't use a tv remote to get to iplayer, or to remove subtitles (auto get shoved up/ no idea how to undo.. so watch tv with them over screen).. there's little chance they know what the 'input' or 'boost' dials are for. Actually I still don't know what the input dial is for, from a user pov.. bc 'input' means nothing to a user. I'd think 75% of owners have no idea why the word's on one of two dials they're meant to control their comfort with. Is the word input on the 2nd dial bc it regulates the voltage up/down for the charge process? how is this word useful to the user? why not 'heat 0-10'?

So its called input bc it regulates the 240v coming in > which means the 'charge' is varied by this? Can you set the 'release' periods to two 2-hour slots AM & PM.. or once the charge period ends/ release period starts, it just releases steadily throughout say 8AM to 11PM? & can you vary the ammount of release? The more I look into these things the more complicated they're becoming! started off a simple circuit + 4 elements + flap ontop.

Thanks for that @A_L ok that's all clear on the charge process. As to the release system then: what is this 'input' dial then, separate from the flap open-close dial (I think this is the boost dial)?

Ok Mr.Tea.. I'd have to assume also that the elements are on a 'low' output at this time? do the elements act like cooker ones & can be adjustable, or are they doing the on/off (flat out on/ totally off) intermittant thing I wonder (that I hate)? the reason I ask is just back to the symptoms of my folks' one: flat out baking hot rad at midnight. Also the galvanised sheet across the whole face of the heater under the cover.. is this to actually -trap/ prevent- heat from getting out, rather than acting like a conductor to facilitate radiated heat out from the large panel face-?

Ok this is making more sense now, air flow considered. And the tips re. water tank etc helpful.. Mum?? you reading this? (I gave her the thread link.. but likely she'll ignore it or fall asleep). Still I'm trying to understand this night period. I understand its at a lower £rate, the principle. But if 4x elements are producing heat, to get trapped within bricks around them, during this time.. how can this heat NOT be transferred out from the rad during this time? just a 1mm strip of metal with alot of heat below it will conduct heat thru > up & out. And so how can the stored energy do anything other than pretty quickly diminish as a result? If the flap was a whopping ceramic hat sealed to perfection.. ok. But it always the very opposite: a wobbly thin bit of metal without any specificly designed sealing edge to it at all afaict.

@dpmiller Ok "Delta T's" are meaning understanding is getting even more elusive/ complicated. Ok can I just ask another way. Say the 2 hour PM slot was 4 hours instead. During this period, the house Cheating is timed to go on. During the start of it the rads trip on, & get the room up to 18* & above. Then the rad trips off, the room after 10 mins goes down to 17*. The rad trips on. This I know to be fact & makes some sense, by way of restricting the ammount of time the rad is on for = efficiency. But the result in my case, from my direct experience, is the rads are either in a flat-out hot (when trv is tripped on).. or a stone cold state (when trv is tripped off). This is a pain in the ass: too hot to touch, & nasty for a child for eg, or stone cold. Why can't a heater just produce a medium heat instead, for twice the length of time? THIS is my point. THIS would determine my choice of a whole house heating system. Just WARM rads please.. not OTT hot / stone cold (1 / 0.. a switched rad, surely it can be called). But a C.heating system cannot give me this afaict.

Hi Prodave- that's a nice clear summing up, just what I needed. Useful for my folks should they read this too. Ok there's one thing I can't understand. This 'charge' process. It -must- be, looking at the few internal components/ relative simplicity of these StHtrs.. that during the night, the elements heat the bricks. There's nothing else in there that could power/ charge anything, bar the elements. So, if these elements are powering/ charging > heating these bricks.. bricks get hot > so the rad gets hot > so, the room gets hot. At night.. I don't want the room hot. So how is this system viable? just putting a thin metal flap on top of the gap between bricks.. cannot mean they become a lower temperature, just the heat is trapped a bit more; the heat will still conduct thru this 1mm steel strip & up/ out anyway in 5 mins.

Ok sorry I misunderstood your post before then. I can't make head nor tail of wax/ oil thermostats- its too technical, but it doesn't matter. All I know is the TRV rad I had, & ones I knew in a C.heating before this house (usefully, only a stove & 2 fan heaters to think of here!).. were, during their 2 hour PM heat slot, either in a flat-out very hot state, or in a stone-cold state. I assume therefore this correlates with the TRV tripping them on, then off (which in turn, to me means this TRV is fundamentally a 0/1 switch). Can you shed any light?

Ok SteamyTea.. but once its got electric power from a separate circuit switch, understood.. what happens? I'm trying to understand this 'energised' state. Something must get energised. I understand that it is by electricity only. I assume that the bricks are what get energised- is that correct? if so, how?

@A_L can you explain to me what this 'energised' state is. I understand the principle of store > release.. but the basic construction I see is 4 heating elements surrounded by bricks (roman-simple) with a control circuit to turn the elements on & off. How can these elements be asked to 'energise' the bricks, or whatever gets energised? Where does this 'energising' situation physically occur?

But this is what I know/ I know a TRV is on a rad filled with nothing other than water.. but regardless of whether a rad's liquid is water, wax or oil.. the principle remains that the valve introduces a wallop of heat every now & then via a thermostat = a hot rad, or a cold rad if the room is deemed warm enough. I'm not sure how this answers my Q's.

Ok this is getting complicated now. damn. Right, how does it close automatically?

Not mine that I had: the rad was either flat out hot or cold, not once was it ever a medium heat. The TRV is just a thermostatic switch tho- & a switch is inherrantly binary. My oil filled rad here's the same, flat out hot or cold/ on or off.. just regulated to go on or off via the thermostat: in this way it can never be a nice medium heat, its not designed to rather the room is designed to be the nice even-medium heat. Surely that's the same basic principle of a TRV rad, just the heated-up liquid different.

I get the feeling in the UK we just have stupidly complicated heating systems- would I be right? I can't see the swedish having TRV fallible rad valves to fail & worry about, storage heaters using nightly off peak periods trying best to release &/ or be operated correctly, or oil filled rads with such complicated (& silly-small) digital controls many folks give up trying to figure out. Bloody ridiculous. I bet the scandies have a nice even, medium-hot heat source from 1 or 2 rads per house, simple as, maybe offshoot from a stove. But I bet never any rad in a daft binary state of flat-out hot, or not on at all + some overcomplicated system to regulate a 'mix'. I seem to remember central heating that had rads that were a nice 'medium' hot, without TRV horroshows attatched. But I was told this wouldn't have been so, they always would have had some kind of TRV valve on. Which means flat-out hot, or cold. On or off state (so not ever a nice medium-warm rad then). I could swear by it tho.

Ah so the flap is operated both manually, & via the resistor-metalstrip ? is the thermostat then part of this circuit? Can you give me an overview of a storage heater system as a whole, say 5 rads. If there's a timed period at night when in the ''charging state" using the lower cost electricity (is this redcuced 'leccy rate even viable still in 2019?), & I cannot see on the rad a timer mech.. how are they controlled?

But the whole thing's barely warm during the day, & proper belting out heat at midnight tho..