Drellingore

I sold my IT consultancy and so have been 'funemployed' since May Which does beggar the question why I'm not further along...

Any suggestions on how to approach the councillor for the ward? Is it generally the 'done thing' to just email, explain all about us and the development, and ask if it's a development that they can support?

This certainly seems to be universally true of the planning system - it's so complicated and inefficient because nothing is universally true! As a programmer and someone who streamlined processes for a living, it's rather flabbergasting.

I don't think I even know who the councillor is, and who the committee is made up of. Any ideas where I'd start looking to find out? I guess I should also sit in on a committee meeting before mine to gather intel on how they work. Thanks, that's kind of you to say. I think yours was one of the accounts that I read before posting (if so, thanks for sharing). Sounds like an absolute mission, but I'm very glad you got there in the end! I wonder how many of these committees are made up of people throwing their weight around thinking that no-one will bother to appeal.

Our controversial planning application drew the ire of the AONB management unit and the Parish council (I'm not sure if they just followed the AONB's lead though). We wanted to change the shape of a non-designated heritage asset in an AONB so that we could use straw bale construction, sequestering carbon in the process and using local materials. I figured that the conservation officer would be aghast, but I had a blind spot for the AONB management team prioritising an aesthetic from a very narrow window of history over generally saving the planet. We've garnered enough local support from neighbours (including the farmer who was born on the site and worked it for decades) that they've put it to committee, despite the planning officer wanting to reject it. Our planning consultant wants to charge extra for this leg of the journey, which I think is fair enough? We were going to take it to appeal anyway, and were prepared to pay charges for their help with that process. I'm in two minds about the opportunity to speak to the committee though. On the one hand, I'm not a planning professional. On the other, I've read the entire NPPF, local plan, AONB management plan, I've given multiple conference keynote speeches and TV interviews, and most importantly I'm passionate about the proposal. Should I make a case to be involved, do you think? Also - thanks to those others who previously shared their committee experiences on BuildHub, it's been informative/horrifying/exhilarating reading what other people have been through!

Yep, the PEBKAC here was not buying a Mac. ducks for cover

That definitely sounds safer to me. I don't know if it's different up there, but this chap was of the opinion that the Environment Agency in England will just defer to the private water company in question as to whether they think something is safe or not. Sounds like (as with many things) there's a more sensible system in Scotland.

I found out a bit more about this. Firstly, I made a mistake and it's only 150m. Secondly, according to an ex-water company manager, the site is on a chalk faultline meaning that once stuff gets below a certain depth it's fast-tracked down to the aquifer.

Awesome, nice find! *highfive*

I can only assume that nobody proof-read the manhole covers

Ha! Ooh, good shout. Having lifted the thing, it appears to be a brick-lined weir for surface water, that then discharges into a pipe under a road, and finally infiltrates under a field (I think). No idea what the acronym might be, but it seems to be serving that purpose. Yeah, it doesn't match any extant water companies, but it is close to Folkestone. Folkestone Waste Water Company? Sounds plausible. No-one seems to know that it exists, or where it leads - Southern Water (the sewage company for the area) don't have it on record, National Highways don't have it on record, and Dover District Council only know that there's a gulley which they empty, but otherwise have zero information. Funny how this stuff gets lost to time!

Does anyone know what F.W.W.C. might stand for on a manhole cover over a roadside surface water sewer?

I get the general impression from reading BuildHub that self-building is a much more enjoyable affair in the other parts of the UK I'll console myself by convincing myself that at least we have less rainy weather where I am!

I'm going to be that person that skim-reads a thread and then makes an tangential suggestion: have you considered an ultra-short-throw projector? I used one at work, and borrowed it to try out for our home cinema setup. It wasn't massively loud, and as it was near the front speakers it was easier to ignore than the traditional projector that we currently have mounted on a shelf above and just behind the sofa.

Yeah, I seem to not be making things clear! It's in groundwater source protection zone 1 which means that, as established in one of those other threads, I cannot meet the general binding rules for a discharge to ground as you suggest. If I cannot meet the general binding rules, then without a permit from the Environment Agency it would be an unauthorised discharge which a UK government website informs me is a breach of criminal law: Building control cannot give me a permit. Only the Environment Agency can. I'd generally, as a rule of thumb, prefer to avoid breaking the law. I find it leads to a simpler life! Please let me know if that doesn't clarify things.

Thanks, I think you're right. PM sent. We paid one company to do a drainage strategy when we were even less informed than we are now, and it was cack - unimaginative, and they even used out-of-date drawings, leading to a payment dispute! I called around a few drainage consultants, and got lots of teeth-sucking followed by "no chance, mate". I got on to the EA after that, and it was they who first suggested that it might be possible to do something other than a cesspool, and that's what the permit application process is there for. I think I then gave up on paid advice on the grounds that the EA were saying there was some chance, and consultants were telling me there was no chance. So maybe it's time I spoke to a good one

Does anyone on BuildHub have personal experience of applying for an EA permit to discharge domestic effluent, either to ground or to surface water? I'm wondering what their attitude is to making multiple applications simultaneously. We've got four broad approaches we might be able to take, pending approval/further information: Use a cesspool (ie no permit required, but it's environmentally and financially unsustainable) Discharge to a ditch/gulley (ie surface water discharge) on the other side of a public road, via a land drain that we think leads there Discharge to a drainage field, which is a bit too large to easily accommodate Discharge to infiltration tunnels, which are much smaller and can be driven over (which means we can make better use of the space, especially as there's a bit of 'dead land' that a neighbouring farmer has a right-of-access over) Pre-application advice hasn't yielded great results so far, I've just had automated responses. I'm tempted to pay for enhanced pre-application advice at £100/hour, in the hope that I get to speak to a human. Failing that, it'll be a matter of making applications and seeing if any get accepted. My questions to anyone with experience are: Is enhanced pre-application advice actually useful? Did the EA open a dialogue as part of an application, or was it three months of waiting in silence for a binary yes/no? Is there any evidence that making three different applications for the same site will prejudice our chances? Notes for people kind enough to consider replying: Yes, I probably do need a permit owing to being in groundwater source protection zone 1. If we can discharge to the ditch/gulley and make the case that it doesn't dry up, we might be covered under GBR, but I'm still in the process of exploring that option. No, I'm probably not doing this in the wrong order - planning was granted with subsequent approval of a drainage strategy as a planning condition. No, I'm not willing to just do whatever and hope no-one notices, as we're close to a water extraction point and there is anecdotal evidence of the water company being extremely sensitive as to what shows up in the supply. No, I really don't want a cesspool. It's 12PE, 80m3, and about £25k plus perhaps up to £4k/year in emptying fees. Ta in advance

Today I'll be out in the rain with a cat-and-genny, and a massive reel of copper that the previous owner left lying around...

That is what I am told, yes. I have no reason to believe that the chap in question would lie to me. It's a chalk valley.

Thanks for the help and the insights, everyone. That's one of the reasons why I'm taking giving this a fair bit of consideration. We're about 300m from the extraction point for the local water supply. The farmer who used to work the land told us that once there was a car crash on the main road next to our site, and to help out he towed one of the damaged vehicles onto the plot to unblock the road. The next day the water company turned up in a flap because they'd detected petrochemicals entering the water supply, which had apparently been from a crack in the petrol tank of the crashed car! Of course we have no intention of putting petrochemicals down the drain (driving fully-electric here since 2013!) but it does give me the impression that they're going to be on it. I'm off to try and find the exact route of this land drain today, which is going to be... Tedious.

I'm grateful that you question that, because I was incorrect and you're right in that it only applies to groundwater discharges and surface water discharges are specifically exempted from rule 7. Sadly I don't think it will change much for our case, as I think I'll be hard pushed to make the case that the ditch/gulley has flowing water

Correct. Being in GWSPZ1 means one cannot meet the GBRs.

Yep, thanks for the heads-up. We've got to apply for a permit anyway if we want anything other than a cesspool, so the general binding rules are orthogonal to our situation.

The plot already had planning permission granted with later delivery and approval of a drainage strategy as a planning condition. I mentioned that we're in groundwater source protection zone 1, so a cesspool is the only acceptable option without an EA permit - thus it's highly likely to get planning permission. Getting back on topic to the original question, the drain/ditch/gulley isn't owned by Southern Water, nor National Highways, but Kent County Council. They have confirmed that they hold no details on it whatsoever other than there are two gullies that they are responsible for occasionally clearing. Hence, this has gone as far as it can without getting surveys done at my own expense.

The HMRC VAT Construction Manual has some guidance on this topic. It's used by HMRC staff.