Drellingore

Thanks! If it's not too much effort, I'd be interested to read that just in case it comes in handy. There are barns already existing, but turning them into dwellings is presumably going to put more load on the ground, so maybe it'll be useful to know. Don't put yourself out though, you've been helpful enough already! EDIT 2: Forgot to write that I'm waiting for a callback from Marsh, so I'm glad to hear a recommendation for them It's quite possible that I am. The issue(s) I have are that: It's source protection zone 1 There are title restrictions explicitly banning anything that discharges to ground The local aquifer is 300m away It's arguably in a flood risk zone The Environment Agency will not tell me what water quality I need to achieve before applying for a permit, and I don't want to lose time with multiple rounds of application The last one is a bureaucratic pain in the backside. It reminds me of when the MOD needed to approve Crossrail routes, but of course can't say where to avoid digging tunnels. So the developers had to just keep submitting plans until they managed to not 'hit' any secret facilities. Kinda like inverse Battleship! EDIT: If I had a vague idea of what they'd find acceptable, it would be a different ballgame. Because of this I think the compromise of risk/progress is to go to the EA with the best solution I can afford (which at the moment is cheaper than the cesspool that would be required), get a permit, then either get insurance on the title restriction or convince the beneficiary to change them. If I go to the EA with anything other than the best I can reasonably afford and it gets rejected, then I won't learn if a solution is possible at all, or whether I just didn't spec high enough.

Thanks for all the help in both this and the other thread. The approach I'm taking now is pursuing intended restriction breach insurance, and then going to the Environment Agency for a discharge permit. Because we're in Source Protection Zone 1, I'm going to need to spec something really clean in order for it to get approved (that, or wait months longer making multiple applications). Something like a Vortex, a Gem-APS and a UV filter should make the water as clean as it can be. If that's the case then hopefully the EA will approve it, which will give insurers more confidence, and then we just hope that the water company see sense eventually. If not, we've got the cesspool as a fallback, but it could cost £5k/year to empty, which is a bit rubbish. I'm going to do a percolation test, and also dig a water-table trial hole (2m deep, 1m square) to check that the water table isn't high. I was thinking of doing the latter by hand, as I like a bit of exercise. Am I mad? I reckon it'll take a good few hours, if the ground isn't full of stones.

Thanks! I'd figured it was an ongoing payment like car insurance or something, so that the insurance company can make a trickle income over decades.

Thanks to the folks who suggested indemnity insurance (@MDC, @Jilly). Looks like I might've shot myself in the foot here by (doing the decent thing and) reaching out to the beneficiary of the restriction to see if it can be sorted out. An insurance broker is looking into it though, to see if I can: Put a cesspool in the planning application Apply for an Environment Agency permit for something more sustainable than a cesspool If it's granted, put in a planning amendment If that's granted, install a packaged treatment plant or whatever Take out insurance, and/or try and get the restriction removed I suppose the insurance companies don't want you to speak to the beneficiary firstly because that increases the chances of them noticing and objecting, and secondly because if you resolve the issue, then you won't need to keep paying your insurance premium any more!

Blimey! Ha, I wonder if that testing is going to involve a hole, a bucket, and a clothes peg over my nose..!

Thanks! Yeah, I've been making phone calls to local drainage/sewerage solution companies. I've got responses varying from "yeah it'll be fine" to "no chance mate," although this is more on the topic of whether the Environment Agency will grant a permit, versus whether I'll be breaking the environmental restrictions. On the latter most folks have said "I'm not a lawyer," and the solicitors I've approached haven't responded yet

I think both? The locals have always referred to it as a pumping station, including the chap next door who used to work for the water company. I haven't yet found a canonical answer online, but this industry news article refers to it as a pumping station (although from context it's clear that they're drawing water from there too).

The contract is pretty well-written. The beneficiary is defined as Veolia or whoever takes on it statutory undertaking, which in this case is Affinity Water. You do raise a good point though in "who is actually going to care?" I've emailed Affinity reception three times to no response, sent a letter via recorded delivery, and today emailed two specific employees. I've had no response yet. I'm sure some (especially the previous owner, who often sails close to the wind) would have just built the thing and ignored the restrictions. With the sewage discharge, there is the matter of them detecting nasties in the water. The locals said that once a car crashed on the junction by the barns, and a local farmer helpfully towed the car onto the barn plot. The next day water company people arrived in a flap, as they'd detected petrol getting into the local water supply! So their equipment must be reasonably sensitive.

Apologies if you've already thought of this and tried it, but are there any differences in curtain configuration? I'm sure it won't be the root of your problem, but might help a little to stem the losses. Our bedrooms (was a cheapo Fairview newbuild in 2012) lose warmth really quickly when the curtains are drawn, and even when they just hang down below the windowsill. Bunching them up onto the windowsills really makes a difference, even if that does lead to condensation on the windows.

There's also the issue that any "conductive media" need to be approved by the water company, so they'll get visibility of what's installed ahead of time.

Veolia, who were the water company at the time. They imposed it as the pumping station of the water supply for the whole area is 200m away - so it's understandable! However, there are cows, sheep and horses in fields right next to it, so it can't be that big of an issue.

Thanks! That's an interesting thought. I was all about to reply saying that all the nearby land is under the same restrictions, but there's on the other side of a main road which might not be. I'll do some (metaphorical) digging. Otherwise though, the answer is that everything is under the same restrictions - it was compulsory purchased by the water board decades ago, and then the whole valley was auctioned off at once by them about 15-20 years ago.

Could any of you lovely folks help me with the below? How hard is it to get a clause from a title removed or changed? How would I go about getting legal advice about precise definitions of terms relating to sewage? Two barns we're converting are on land previously owned by the water board. Our title makes reference to a title transfer document, that has environmental restrictions stipulated therein. I'm trying to work out if we can possibly have something other than a cesspool on-site (there's no public sewer for a quarter of a mile). We're in groundwater source protection zone 1 which would normally preclude anything that discharges, but the Environment Agency have an exemption permit procedure that we can go through. However, that's all for naught if this pesky clause can't be worked around. It'd be super annoying if the EA are like "yep, your proposal is perfectly safe" but because someone wrote a thing in a title that we can't go ahead, no matter how safe, sensible, and sustainable it is. Hence, I'm keen to try and find some help. I've got no idea what sort of solicitor to approach (our conveyancing solicitor hasn't been very forthcoming at helping us with this), and I don't know if it's even possible to change the restrictions if there is no favourable interpretation that can be found. Any suggestions would be most gratefully received. No advice or opinions will be assumed to be legal advice from a qualified professional. It'd be good just to get people's thoughts, to see if the consensus is that I'm trying the impossible. For those who are interested, here's a couple of pertinent clauses: Now, the existence of clause 7 gives me some hope. Is what comes out of our barn conversion "domestic sewage", but what comes out of a treatment plant "domestic waste"? Why bother with clause 7 otherwise? At what point does sewage becomes something else (eg treated effluent)? Because if no amount of treatment changes it from sewage into something else, then surely we're all drinking dinosaur sewage? Also, the lack of commas is not helpful. Is clause 5 referring to "the ground surface watercourses", or "the ground, surface watercourses", ie is it referring to one thing or two?

I assume as they never got to the water (it'd be a bit weird to keep drilling after hitting the water table). Cripes, that's a big area. Thanks for your thoughts all, I'll continue to look into this and let you know how I get on.

One building that'll be permanently occupied is 4 bedrooms, and the annexe (which might be a holiday let, depending on planning) 2 bedrooms. I don't think there's clay, and no streams or ditches. That said, there might be one on the other side of the road that adjoins the property, so I could check that out. Nice idea! We built an outdoor composting loo (basically a shed around a wheelie bin!) so we could camp there. I'd be up for this, but I'd have to get it past the family. I like your thinking, and I'm interested in greywater recycling generally, and would welcome any thoughts you have on that. The "Gone West" username makes sense now

Ha! Small world! The site is that of an old farm called "Drellingore", a bit further south than Barham. I think I might actually have gotten the name wrong, and it's a different winterbourne, as the AONB management guide says: That or it's a common term, rather than a name. ...And now I'm down a local history rabbit hole There's a local history site that references the "Drellingore Nailbourne", and even some antique photo on eBay!

Wow, you folks are super-responsive and helpful. lol - in that case I'm fairly sure the water table is well below the ground level. I've dug 50cm trial pits for structural surveys, and there was no sign of any water. The site is at the bottom of a 'dry valley', which is made of chalk so all the water seeps quite deep down. The area used to flood once every seven years or so, forming a temporary river locally known as the "nailbourne". Since the started abstracting the local water supply from the bottom of the valley, it's never been known to flood. Thanks! There is a result just south of our site (at the same altitude above sea level) but I'm snozzwangled if I can make any sense of it! One of the neighbours used to work for the water board, so I might ask him. Ah, I gather you're in Scotland. Sensibly (it seems many Scottish government decisions are more sensible than ours!) it seems that cesspools aren't even allowed in Scotland, so presumably up there y'all must've figured out a sensible solution in these sorts of areas. I think the permit application we have to make in England is Part B6.5, and because there's two buildings we'll apparently have to provide a "Flows and Loads - 4" calculation. There's mention of a risk assessment in the form that needs to be done, but because we'll be < 2m3 a day, the EA will do that for us.

Wow, thanks for the very quick response I'm mostly working solo on this at the moment, and so the kindness of strangers is appreciated. That's encouraging to read! There's a small matter of the land having belonged to the water board, and there being some restriction in the title, but I'll save that for another day! I'm slightly embarrassed to say that I don't know. Any ideas how to find out? We are about 200m from the local water supply pumping plant though

This isn't quite building regs, but I couldn't find a subforum for the Environment Agency Mods, please feel free to relocate the thread if I chose the wrong place. Does anyone have experience of getting a permit for anything that's not a cesspool in Groundwater Source Protection Zone 1? Is it possible? Or am I on a hiding to nothing? Without an EA permit, our only option is a cesspool. We're trying to build something environmentally-friendly and sustainable, and a cesspool definitely isn't! It looks like we need a whacking-great 84m3 cesspool too, which is massive. Ideally we'd like a reedbed, but I'm not sure if there'll be space, and I can imagine the EA finding it easier to permit a packaged treatment plant. The only problem is that I've got not idea what kind of discharge metrics they'll find acceptable. The advice from one treatment plant vendor was that the EA will only tell you what quality you need to achieve after applying for a permit! Any help or anecdotes would be most gratefully received.

Hi all, new member here! I'm working on the conversion of two barns - one into a family home, the other into an annexe/holiday let. We're doing this on 'hard mode' though, as it's in an Area Of Outstanding Natural Beauty, one of the barns is a Non-Designated Heritage Asset, and it's in Groundwater Source Protection Zone 1. I previously ran an IT consultancy which I sold, and my other half is an interior architect and designer. I'm used to working in teams with a lot of buzz and hubbub, and working solo on this has been a bit lonely. Hence I'm hoping that this forum offers a bit of community