Easement cost

[nickw]

Now need to get an easement for a water pipe, was told it would all be fine when I offered on the land and before I got planning, now told the land owner is fine but the last field to cross to the mains the different owner wants £750 just on solicitor cost x2 as I could be doing this with another property owner who can sort his water out once and for all. So 1500 quid just on legal and I'm waiting to hear what the chartered surveyor is advising the landowner of the actual easement charge. What do you reckon will be the cost?. Will cross 400 yards of sloping arable field, that already has umpteen pipes in it from others who have historically had it laid over the years in somewhat of a Devon style ( various pipes and multiple take offs from other pipes)

best guess welcome.

[Ferdinand]

Oooooer! This has lots of angles and issues, and the potential outcome could be almost anything. A Serious Question.

 

Before this gets tangent-ed with lots of useful, but not precisely relevant, information, could you answer the following questions.

 

1 - Have you bought the plot yet ie exchanged or completed? This affects your negotiating leverage.

 

2 - Who told you it ‘would all be fine’, and what record do you have? Written and signed? Or verbal only? Witnesses? The underlying question there is how much of a warranty have you been given, and how well can you get redress if it turns out not to be fine at all.

 

3 - I am assuming that you have the cost of the Physical work well understood, and that we do not need to address that at this point. Though it sounds like a substantial sum to do, and there will also be the cost of disruption to the owner of the final field, insurance for others’ pipes etc. Make that a separate thread if needed. Keep this one focussed on the Easement.

 

4 - Classically, this is one to find out the cost first, and then deduct off the value of the offer. The risk around getting supplies needs to be managed before purchase, or you could potentially meet dragons at the breakfast table.

 

5 - Really all that can be said firmly about the potential costs without more info is that:

 

a) - the minimum will be the expenses of the other guy if he decides to donate you access,

b) - the maximum he can possibly charge is set by the net cost of you doing it another way. Eg If your Plan B is to dig a borehole at a cost of 40k (including rolled up maintenance costs for x years), then he can charge you 39k minus the implementation costs for the rest of Plan A, which is your ultimate point of adopting Plan B.

 

In utilitarian terms a best outcome for him is to get you to point B.

 

Other factors above affect these 2 numbers, and who gets to pay it.

 

I am sure that people can quote anecdata, however, and that the numbers will be nearly nothing to the *headdesk* inducing uncomfortable.

 

6 Do you have a viable Plan B? You will need to know the cost of that to inform your negotiation and walk away from Plan A. If you guess at the cost of Plan B then you will be playing Pin the Tail on the Donkey, without having seen the donkey first.

 

7 Is there anything non-pecuniary that the Final Owner wants, that you can supply? You may be better offering expenses plus an in kind lollipop.

 

I really hope that a lot of these issues are already scoped out, and that the final owner is reasonable / fair.

 

Ferdinand

 

 

Edited February 23, 2019 by Ferdinand

[nod]

I sympathise with you

For me things like these where the most frustrating part of the build 

Somthing that you have no control over 

You will drive yourself mad trying to second guess

 

We needed to run across next door but ones garden with our drainage 

Demolish two hedges and a shed 

We braced our selfs for the cost 

In reality he could of asked for any amount We would of had to pay 

He said re instate the hedges and grass and get rid of the the old shed 

No money changed hands 

BC control Knocked on his door to inspect 

He simply said No and shut the door 

People can suprised you 

[scottishjohn]

what ever you do  it needs to be binding agreement for all subsequent owners of that land   --so it will cost you money 

If you don,t  then if owner changes --he could decide he don,t like it

so yes something you going to need legals on

[nickw]

8 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

Oooooer! This has lots of angles and issues, and the potential outcome could be almost anything. A Serious Question.

 

Before this gets tangent-ed with lots of useful, but not precisely relevant, information, could you answer the following questions.

 

1 - Have you bought the plot yet ie exchanged or completed? This affects your negotiating leverage.

 

2 - Who told you it ‘would all be fine’, and what record do you have? Written and signed? Or verbal only? Witnesses? The underlying question there is how much of a warranty have you been given, and how well can you get redress if it turns out not to be fine at all.

 

3 - I am assuming that you have the cost of the Physical work well understood, and that we do not need to address that at this point. Though it sounds like a substantial sum to do, and there will also be the cost of disruption to the owner of the final field, insurance for others’ pipes etc. Make that a separate thread if needed. Keep this one focussed on the Easement.

 

4 - Classically, this is one to find out the cost first, and then deduct off the value of the offer. The risk around getting supplies needs to be managed before purchase, or you could potentially meet dragons at the breakfast table.

 

5 - Really all that can be said firmly about the potential costs without more info is that:

 

a) - the minimum will be the expenses of the other guy if he decides to donate you access,

b) - the maximum he can possibly charge is set by the net cost of you doing it another way. Eg If your Plan B is to dig a borehole at a cost of 40k (including rolled up maintenance costs for x years), then he can charge you 39k minus the implementation costs for the rest of Plan A, which is your ultimate point of adopting Plan B.

 

In utilitarian terms a best outcome for him is to get you to point B.

 

Other factors above affect these 2 numbers, and who gets to pay it.

 

I am sure that people can quote anecdata, however, and that the numbers will be nearly nothing to the *headdesk* inducing uncomfortable.

 

6 Do you have a viable Plan B? You will need to know the cost of that to inform your negotiation and walk away from Plan A. If you guess at the cost of Plan B then you will be playing Pin the Tail on the Donkey, without having seen the donkey first.

 

7 Is there anything non-pecuniary that the Final Owner wants, that you can supply? You may be better offering expenses plus an in kind lollipop.

 

I really hope that a lot of these issues are already scoped out, and that the final owner is reasonable / fair.

 

Ferdinand

 

 

thanks guys, Ferdinand to help answer the questions, I haven't completed on the land yet, I have an option running out out in about 2 months, The land owner has been great in all regards to his side of things, way leaves for electric on his , no problem no cost, putting in just under 2 k of water pipe , through hedges and so on, no problem no cost bar me doing the work (some with his help) and paying for all the gear.

I had to move quickly on the land otherwise someone would have taken it and also taken the chance like I have and it's taken along time to find a viable, affordable plot so he was pretty good to give me an option, the option was in place subject to getting full planning off a q class already in place. However the original q class was awful and I guess it had put a lot of people off. Then there was the issue of a troublesome neighbor objecting to everything they possibly could. With all that in mind , planning went through no problem with some amendments I did to placate the neighbor. 

I didn't want to spend out money before planing was given as if it hadn't been I would not have gone ahead with the q class, so now I racing to catch up , order the electric and get on with the water. It was the landowner that originally has said "water wont be a problem" 99% laid on his land and the last bit by the other owner as I mentioned has everyone that sits that side of the land going through the land. All the properties I will be even remotely close to have problems with their water every year, so bits are dug up on a regular basis, mine was going to be new and hopefully done with zero issues for certainly a time to come.

I cannot now with the planning in place re negotiate the land cost , as the owner is sitting pretty with full planning now.

I see my options as 

1. pay whatever the cost, so far £3 k in materials, plus sw water connection and infrastructure( yet to be told how much) plus now the legal stuff and whatever he quotes for his easement. total cost unknown yet.

2. Buy the land and sell onto to someone else with an unlimited budget, make some money on the deal as the value has gone up, take off expenses so far and time 12 months and walk away pretty pissed off with lessons learnt.

3. Borehole, costs unknown. Best guess 7-9k

[Ferdinand]

So based on that you have one month and a bit to mitigate your risk.

 

Perhaps get an option agreement in place with the final field person if you can, for expenses plus a suitable sum, to cap the liability so you know where you stand, then consider a borehole as that number sounds acceptable for a borehole. You will have to pay him a smallish fee plus legals, as you know.

 

Make the agreement long term enough to cover you selling it on, and make it transferable to a purchaser.

 

And see if you get a good ideally binding estimate on a borehole, which sounds like a way of avoiding all the water problems ... maybe.

 

But it sounds like the one to buy anyway. But decide PDQ if you are building or selling on; PP is a rapidly wasting asset and land values are another pin the tail on the donkey operation. Everybody buying it will do as much due diligence as you have.

 

Alternatively lock the PP in by digging a suitable something soon after purchase, which will take the pressure off.

 

Glad to see you are making a fist of managing the risk.

 

F

Edited February 23, 2019 by Ferdinand

[PeterW]

2 hours ago, nickw said:

I see my options as 

1. pay whatever the cost, so far £3 k in materials, plus sw water connection and infrastructure( yet to be told how much) plus now the legal stuff and whatever he quotes for his easement. total cost unknown yet.

2. Buy the land and sell onto to someone else with an unlimited budget, make some money on the deal as the value has gone up, take off expenses so far and time 12 months and walk away pretty pissed off with lessons learnt.

3. Borehole, costs unknown. Best guess 7-9k

 

TBH if this is in the middle of nowhere and you've 9/10th committed then I would go with option 3. Even if it costs you £10k, you are free water for life, and a nice place to be as you will have not become beholden to anyone. 

 

Deep breath, smile and walk on by...

 

 

[Jeremy Harris]

I'd go with the borehole, but up the budgetary estimate for it to around £10k, as my experience has been that the true cost is a fair bit more than the drilling cost.  If going for a borehole, then it's very well worth doing a (free) search of the borehole records held by the BGS, here: http://www.bgs.ac.uk/data/boreholescans/home.html

 

This will show local boreholes to your plot and give you a feel for the depth needed to get to a viable aquifer.  If it looks like a borehole may be viable, then it's relatively cheap (around £300 or so) to get a hydrogeological survey done, that will give you details of the geology under your plot, plus a borehole drilling specification.  If you go down this route then I can recommend a good hydrogeologist, the chap that did our survey.

 

Drilling costs will be around £60 to £80/m, screen and casing will be around £40/m, packing media and grout around £200 to £400, pump around £1k installed (excluding electrical work) plus a couple of hundred for the chamber at the top of the borehole.  On top of this you have to budget for the electrical work, pressure vessel, switch, any filtration needed plus a UV disinfection unit.  These costs can vary a great deal depending on the quality of the water you find.

[vivienz]

And don't forget that the borehole is VAT zero rated, whereas legals are all plus VAT.

[nickw]

Thanks Guys all useful advice. More I think about it the more it looks to be borehole with its associated short term costs but long term gain. Now to get some eyewatering quotes.

JS had a look at the link you sent ty for that, the ones listed nearby look to be approx 45metres, I know there are a couple around closer that arn't on the geo system.

Could you Pm me with the contact for hydrologist you mentioned.

Again Ta all, all advice is helpful. 

[Gone West]

1 hour ago, nickw said:

Now to get some eyewatering quotes.

We had a 47m borehole drilled nine years ago through clay and shingle and it cost £3000. There were large variations in quotes, so get plenty.