bikerchris Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 Hi All, Just thought I'd include the cost estimate from Kensa, in case it's helpful to anyone in any way. They've only taken a few days to get to this info to me. 3kW Shoebox £3,407.25 1 Way Above Ground Manifold £373.75 2 Drums of Antifreeze £97 x 2 1 x 30m Slinky £450 (for small space, only estimated) Delivery £62 Total = £4,487 + VAT So £5400 all inc. but not including install of course! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottishjohn Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 (edited) that should help your thoughts a bit LOL. without even looking at the small slinky ,which i doubt could give you the heat at a high COP you are wanting. plus when you look around further you will find that slinkies are not well liked by a lot of GSHP consultants . modern preferred method now is simple trench single pipe going up and down spaced at least 2-3m apart . read this http://sourceenergy.co.uk/how-much-space-do-you-need-for-a-ground-source-heat-pump/ Edited February 7, 2019 by scottishjohn 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sam Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 I'm not convinced I saved that much cost using slinkies but so far I am averaging a COP of 5 with a Kensa Evo setup. Don't forget to budget for sand and moving that sand, if you need it. All the manufactures I spoke to said you would get the MCS quoted COP if you followed their installation guidelines. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 Looks like the price for the Shoebox hasn't changed much in recent years. I found Kensa to be extremely helpful, back when I was looking into the feasibility of installing a GSHP using a standing column collector. They were also the only manufacturer I found who were able to supply a small unit that met our needs. The only reason we switched to using an ASHP was cost. The total installed cost for the GSHP option came to close to £8k, and the improvement in COP over an ASHP wasn't enough over the expected life of the heat pump to ever recover the installed price difference - £6k buys a LOT of electricity. Our ASHP cost around £2k installed, which made the decision a bit of a no-brainer. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferdinand Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 (edited) 8 hours ago, bikerchris said: Hi All, Just thought I'd include the cost estimate from Kensa, in case it's helpful to anyone in any way. They've only taken a few days to get to this info to me. 3kW Shoebox £3,407.25 1 Way Above Ground Manifold £373.75 2 Drums of Antifreeze £97 x 2 1 x 30m Slinky £450 (for small space, only estimated) Delivery £62 Total = £4,487 + VAT So £5400 all inc. but not including install of course! MOre complex systems, especially when you consider maintenance costs, have a very long payback if you have a good quality fabric which reduces your annual energy bills to say £500-1000. I would say that the era of Code for Sustainable Homes was all about complex ways of achieving things, That is often now done more easily by a fabric-first strategy, and leaving out the complex gubbins . IMO GSHP is now very niche, and imo things like Rainwater Harvesting have mainly had their time, if you do a high quality fabric approach. SImilarly for complex control systems - if you can heat your whole house with a few kilowatts, then room stat timers cease to be economic. Ferdinand Edited February 7, 2019 by Ferdinand 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 I have to agree that an ASHP is so much cheaper. I too looked at GSHP initially. Even though at the time I had my own digger, so burying the pipe was just time and some diesel, the extra costs compared to an ASHP would never ever be repaid in the small saving in electricity compared to an ASHP. I did install (as in wire up) a shoebox once, I recall the instructions were far from clear, so much that I had to phone technical support when it did not work. Their technical support were far more helpful than the manual and we got it working. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 1 hour ago, Ferdinand said: things like Rainwater Harvesting have mainly had their time I would respectfully beg to differ on that. I believe that in parts of the US the storage and harvesting of rainwater for domestic has been made illegal. On the surface this is to help stop the spread of certain water borne disease. I don't believe it's a coincidence that in some areas such as CA water is a scarce resource and this can be used as a form of control by forcing in effect the consumer to buy from approved sources at an ever-increasing price. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerchris Posted February 7, 2019 Author Share Posted February 7, 2019 9 hours ago, scottishjohn said: that should help your thoughts a bit LOL. without even looking at the small slinky ,which i doubt could give you the heat at a high COP you are wanting. plus when you look around further you will find that slinkies are not well liked by a lot of GSHP consultants . modern preferred method now is simple trench single pipe going up and down spaced at least 2-3m apart . read this http://sourceenergy.co.uk/how-much-space-do-you-need-for-a-ground-source-heat-pump/ lol Just a bit! Thought it would help with my tax deductibles...hmmm. Still a lot of money just for a clean look ? Yeah I can see how slinkies are less efficient for sure, thanks for the linkie ? 5 hours ago, sam said: I'm not convinced I saved that much cost using slinkies but so far I am averaging a COP of 5 with a Kensa Evo setup. Don't forget to budget for sand and moving that sand, if you need it. All the manufactures I spoke to said you would get the MCS quoted COP if you followed their installation guidelines. Very Interesting and useful Sam, thank you very much for that ? 5 hours ago, JSHarris said: Looks like the price for the Shoebox hasn't changed much in recent years. I found Kensa to be extremely helpful, back when I was looking into the feasibility of installing a GSHP using a standing column collector. They were also the only manufacturer I found who were able to supply a small unit that met our needs. The only reason we switched to using an ASHP was cost. The total installed cost for the GSHP option came to close to £8k, and the improvement in COP over an ASHP wasn't enough over the expected life of the heat pump to ever recover the installed price difference - £6k buys a LOT of electricity. Our ASHP cost around £2k installed, which made the decision a bit of a no-brainer. I can quite see why you went ASHP, for a quarter of the price! That's nice info though, thank you very much ? 3 hours ago, Ferdinand said: MOre complex systems, especially when you consider maintenance costs, have a very long payback if you have a good quality fabric which reduces your annual energy bills to say £500-1000. I would say that the era of Code for Sustainable Homes was all about complex ways of achieving things, That is often now done more easily by a fabric-first strategy, and leaving out the complex gubbins . IMO GSHP is now very niche, and imo things like Rainwater Harvesting have mainly had their time, if you do a high quality fabric approach. SImilarly for complex control systems - if you can heat your whole house with a few kilowatts, then room stat timers cease to be economic. Ferdinand You're right (thought I can't speak for Rainwater Harvesters), it has to be said I'm hoping for a fairly well insulated box, so that's half the battle done. @scottishjohn did mention at one point in another thread, about getting a combined heating/cooling unit...so far I think I'm swaying in that direction. Thanks for your contribution though ? 2 hours ago, ProDave said: I have to agree that an ASHP is so much cheaper. I too looked at GSHP initially. Even though at the time I had my own digger, so burying the pipe was just time and some diesel, the extra costs compared to an ASHP would never ever be repaid in the small saving in electricity compared to an ASHP. I did install (as in wire up) a shoebox once, I recall the instructions were far from clear, so much that I had to phone technical support when it did not work. Their technical support were far more helpful than the manual and we got it working. Interesting stuff Dave, cheers for that - especially that you had your own digger ? 59 minutes ago, Onoff said: I would respectfully beg to differ on that. I believe that in parts of the US the storage and harvesting of rainwater for domestic has been made illegal. On the surface this is to help stop the spread of certain water borne disease. I don't believe it's a coincidence that in some areas such as CA water is a scarce resource and this can be used as a form of control by forcing in effect the consumer to buy from approved sources at an ever-increasing price. I can't quite believe that, only watched YouTube video the other day (LINKIE), the guy made it quite enjoyable to watch, though I would have done a few very minor things differently, but we all put are mark on stuff. Thanks again for all your feedback peoples! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 6 minutes ago, bikerchris said: I can't quite believe that, only watched YouTube video the other day (LINKIE), the guy made it quite enjoyable to watch, though I would have done a few very minor things differently, but we all put are mark on stuff. It's true about rainwater capture being illegal in some States. I just looked it up and in fact it appears CA repealed previous legislation and allowed it under the Rainwater Recapture Act of 2012. https://www.lexisnexis.com/legalnewsroom/top-emerging-trends/b/emerging-trends-law-blog/posts/california-s-rainwater-recapture-act-lets-state-residents-capture-use-harvested-rainwater Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerchris Posted February 7, 2019 Author Share Posted February 7, 2019 5 minutes ago, Onoff said: It's true about rainwater capture being illegal in some States. I just looked it up and in fact it appears CA repealed previous legislation and allowed it under the Rainwater Recapture Act of 2012. https://www.lexisnexis.com/legalnewsroom/top-emerging-trends/b/emerging-trends-law-blog/posts/california-s-rainwater-recapture-act-lets-state-residents-capture-use-harvested-rainwater Apologies - didn't check for typos, had meant to write, "I CAN quite believe that", my bad. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 19 minutes ago, bikerchris said: Interesting stuff Dave, cheers for that - especially that you had your own digger ? Yes quite a few on here have bought their own diggers. I bought it, used it for 3 years, services, foundations, burying the treatment plant and basic landscaping, then sold it. It really was very handy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerchris Posted February 7, 2019 Author Share Posted February 7, 2019 20 minutes ago, ProDave said: Yes quite a few on here have bought their own diggers. I bought it, used it for 3 years, services, foundations, burying the treatment plant and basic landscaping, then sold it. It really was very handy. Definitely something I'd have if budget and garden would make use of it...oh and have somewhere secure for it to be kept. Will definitely get one for the next property if there's something that needs knocking about ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottishjohn Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 I,m looking now for a digger --not cheap though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 Just now, scottishjohn said: I,m looking now for a digger --not cheap though £10K will get you a good one. You will get most of that back when you sell it. I bought an old wreck at just about the floor price of £2500. It was old and loose, but it worked. And after 3 years use I sold it for £2500 so what was not to like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottishjohn Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, ProDave said: £10K will get you a good one. You will get most of that back when you sell it. I bought an old wreck at just about the floor price of £2500. It was old and loose, but it worked. And after 3 years use I sold it for £2500 so what was not to like. all these 10k lumps for things add up and not sure really if a jcb type -wouldn,t be more useful all round Edited February 7, 2019 by scottishjohn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 10 minutes ago, scottishjohn said: all these 10k lumps for things add up Yes but you will get most of it back. Finish all the heavy work, sell it, and spend the proceeds on the inside of the house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferdinand Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 (edited) On 07/02/2019 at 20:04, Onoff said: I would respectfully beg to differ on that. I believe that in parts of the US the storage and harvesting of rainwater for domestic has been made illegal. On the surface this is to help stop the spread of certain water borne disease. I don't believe it's a coincidence that in some areas such as CA water is a scarce resource and this can be used as a form of control by forcing in effect the consumer to buy from approved sources at an ever-increasing price. On the Rainwater Harvesting - yes, but we (or at least I) were talking domestic systems, and in particular their use with a second set of plumbing installed. On the US, IMO the biggest issues are 1 - inefficient us of energy in general, 2 - wrt water entrenched interests eg farmers with historic rights. Distorting effect similiar to all our savings on pension costs having to be met from people not yet being paid. The sunk cost cannot be reduced for political reasons. Ferdinand Edited February 10, 2019 by Ferdinand 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 30 minutes ago, Ferdinand said: On the Rainwater Harvesting - yes, but we (or at least I) were talking domestic systems, and in particular their use with a second set of plumbing installed. On the US, IMO the biggest issues are 1 - inefficient us of energy in general, 2 - wrt water entrenched interests eg farmers with historic rights. Distorting effect similiar to all our savings on pension costs having to be met from people not yet being paid. The sunk cost cannot be reduced for political reasons. Ferdinand There is also a I was talking domestic use. We've seen I think @Bitpipe? constuct a 4000L diy system based on second hand IBC tanks for very little money. I'm on a meter here and that would make a fair difference to me in the Summer. Appreciate not all have the land/space/ability to construct such a system and in that specific case a concrete enclosure for the tanks was incorporated in the build. I was just trying to get across that water is and will become more so just another taxable commidity. It'll be fresh air next! I'd I suspect be able to easily do a borehole given I'm in the bottom of a valley and either side about 100m away are capped boreholes 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferdinand Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 3 hours ago, Onoff said: I was talking domestic use So was I ?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerchris Posted February 9, 2019 Author Share Posted February 9, 2019 I know a guy who wanted to use rain water storage to flush his loo with. I helped him re-roof and fit heat pipes, exceedingly environmental. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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