Pocster Posted November 13, 2018 Author Share Posted November 13, 2018 11 minutes ago, ProDave said: It is not just the missing tundish, but the D2 pipe should be at least 22mm possibly more depending how long it is and how many bends it has. This one looks to be only 15mm. If he can'r be bothered to fit the tundish and the correct size pipe, then how much confidence do you have that he has done the calcs to actually determine what size pipe it should be? And do you even know where it discharges And lets not forget the cage around the discharge point as it could be discharging boiling water. I know, I know. I'm on it. Builder now really pissy with me as he's just the middle man. So have the installers number. So!; apart for asking for a tun dish to be installed what paperwork should I have (I've been told he is G3) ; just some commissioning checklist paperwork?? that it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pocster Posted November 13, 2018 Author Share Posted November 13, 2018 I can't find anything online - but a simple question... Does an unvented cylinder install require building regs? (I assume not) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pocster Posted November 13, 2018 Author Share Posted November 13, 2018 (edited) Answer my own question. A 'competent' person (i.e. G3) can self cert their work and provide a certificate...... The installer didn't answer so I've text him my concerns - best wait and see what happens. But lets take worst case scenario ( !! ). He doesn't respond. What do I do then?. Simply grab another 'G3' qualified plumber get him to look; and hope for the best. As usual with trades (no offence to the 'proper' people on here ) I'm simply sticking my hand in a barrel of snakes and hoping not to get bit. The more I think about it (and worry!) the more I'd like it inspected 'independently' - if there's a cost to 'fix' I'll just deduct that from what I owe the builder. SO!; whom do I call for an 'inspection' British Gas?????? Edited November 13, 2018 by pocster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pocster Posted November 13, 2018 Author Share Posted November 13, 2018 (edited) Currently on hold to gas safe register. See what they say. Tempted once builders finished to get a 'annual unvented cylinder check' for £120 see what happens...... Edited November 13, 2018 by pocster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pocster Posted November 13, 2018 Author Share Posted November 13, 2018 Spoke to gas safe. There is NO installation that doesn't require a tundish (though he admits without seeing it a bit difficult) He agreed that 'what else' could be wrong and a 2nd opinion might be worth it. Rather than piss the builder off more i.e. let him finish his stuff; I shall wait. Assuming gas guy gets back too me... but it's hard to imagine what he can say "you don't need it mate" - he has no justification. Which means I will need a 2nd opinion and check....... FFS! As usual being done over by trades - that's 3 out of 3 now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pocster Posted November 13, 2018 Author Share Posted November 13, 2018 Right! You lot ain't going to like this...... ? Spoke to installer. Confirmed he is G3 and paperwork will be with the cylinder (so I'll grab that tomorrow) He said a tun dish could be installed if I want. He has been requested by other customers due to the corrosion and leaks to remove them (said he would send me a photo if i wished). Given this situation i.e. a HMO where nobody cares/checks anything he felt it foolish to stick it in a cupboard where it will never be viewed. It goes into the boiler overflow/expansion pipe (boiler is literally next to the tank) - so any issue will overflow outside which I can easily check. He IS interpreting the rules to suit the situation (which I know you'll all say is wrong). BUT! as a LL I interpret rules and indeed sometimes deviate to suit a situation. But this doesn't make me right! So yes he has adapted to suit the situation (which as I said you could agree is incorrect). Bit like my leaky roof; the standard 'follow the text' solution is no good for that situation. I'm much happier after speaking too him; and will be even happier once I have grabbed the paperwork. He was going back tomorrow to sort out some timer issue ( though I said timers for hot water is largely pointless in an HMO where hot water is required 24/7 ). So! @Nickfromwales if it blows up in the night killing 6 tenants - I'll be legally covered ; as he has certified and commissioned the install. I shall sleep tonight - until of course you all reply........... ( remember I'm just the customer not the bomb maker! ) ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 8 minutes ago, pocster said: So! @Nickfromwales if it blows up in the night killing 6 tenants - I'll be legally covered ; as he has certified and commissioned the install. I shall sleep tonight - until of course you all reply........... ( remember I'm just the customer not the bomb maker! ) ? My part-time job is investigation work for insurance companies, in the main. Much of it hinges on liability. One thing I can say for sure, with no doubt whatsoever, is that now you know that the installation is non-compliant with the safety regulations you will be liable. The installer may well be able to mitigate the case against him (assuming something goes wrong) by claiming that the client asked him to remove/not fit an essential, critical, safety device. What's more, as a landlord you have a higher duty of care than a house owner, so the chances are that any court will consider that you carry an enhanced liability, even before the evidence that you knew about the non-compliance is presented. The bizarre thing here is that if you had no knowledge at all of the regulations, and would not have been able to tell from just looking at the installation that there was anything wrong with it, you would have had a good argument for mitigating circumstances, and it would have been the installer that would have been almost wholly liable. Bear in mind that this non-compliance will be uncovered in a years time when the annual G3 check is due, too, so at best you're only putting this off until then. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pocster Posted November 13, 2018 Author Share Posted November 13, 2018 Just now, JSHarris said: My part-time job is investigation work for insurance companies, in the main. Much of it hinges on liability. One thing I can say for sure, with no doubt whatsoever, is that now you know that the installation is non-compliant with the safety regulations you will be liable. The installer may well be able to mitigate the case against him (assuming something goes wrong) by claiming that the client asked him to remove/not fit an essential, critical, safety device. What's more, as a landlord you have a higher duty of care than a house owner, so the chances are that any court will consider that you carry an enhanced liability, even before the evidence that you knew about the non-compliance is presented. ?No sleep again. I take your point JS ; but I now have some evidence ( this thread ) . In essense an 'overflow' can occur just as it would with a turdish ; with more chance of me seeing it as it's external. Just aswell I have 2 million liability insurance. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pocster Posted November 13, 2018 Author Share Posted November 13, 2018 (edited) I don't like this thread anymore. Can't we talk about defunct walk on glass or leaky underground house roofs like before......? Edited November 13, 2018 by pocster 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 Just now, pocster said: ?No sleep again. I take your point JS ; but I now have some evidence ( this thread ) . In essense an 'overflow' can occur just as it would with a turdish ; with more chance of me seeing it as it's external. Just aswell I have 2 million liability insurance. ? I hate to say this, but if someone is injured as a consequence of this fault, then your insurance is almost worthless, other than perhaps covering your legal fees (and that's debatable). You cannot insure against an unlawful act, and if someone was hurt the charge would most probably be criminal negligence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pocster Posted November 13, 2018 Author Share Posted November 13, 2018 He's just sent me a photo of a corroded tundish left leaking...... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pocster Posted November 13, 2018 Author Share Posted November 13, 2018 1 minute ago, JSHarris said: I hate to say this, but if someone is injured as a consequence of this fault, then your insurance is almost worthless, other than perhaps covering your legal fees (and that's debatable). You cannot insure against an unlawful act, and if someone was hurt the charge would most probably be criminal negligence. Hurt by the absence of a tundish? Again I take your point. But the water ( via tundish or other means ) still leaves the property. I can asked him to fix one. Then when it leaks I'll just get a water stain on the ceiling below indicating there's a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 The problem is as @Nickfromwales has said, the outside drain, D2, can freeze, get blocked with snow or whatever and then there is no where for the explosive pressure build up to go, if something like the boiler stat fails and the tank overheats. A leaking PRV should be fixed as soon as the leak is spotted, not "fixed" by taking the tundish out so the leak isn't visible any more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pocster Posted November 13, 2018 Author Share Posted November 13, 2018 (edited) Requested cylinder guy to fit a tundish. I see his 'logic' though. But I can't take the risk of a serious issue and by liable. Stained ceiling it is! Edited November 13, 2018 by pocster 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 1 minute ago, pocster said: Requested cylinder guy to fit a tundish. I see his 'logic' though. But I can't take the risk of a serious issue and by liable. Stained ceiling it is! Good move. Nothing should leak if the PRV remains sealed. That photo isn't of a faulty tundish, it's evidence of a leak above the tundish that's been dripping water over it for a long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pocster Posted November 13, 2018 Author Share Posted November 13, 2018 6 minutes ago, JSHarris said: The problem is as @Nickfromwales has said, the outside drain, D2, can freeze, get blocked with snow or whatever and then there is no where for the explosive pressure build up to go, if something like the boiler stat fails and the tank overheats. A leaking PRV should be fixed as soon as the leak is spotted, not "fixed" by taking the tundish out so the leak isn't visible any more. The problem is even with a tundish installed it's not visible. I'd have to manually say every 3 months ( not sure what frequency is required ) go and physically look at it. But if that's the 'solution' then so be it. Note for judge in event of accident: I have requested a tundish be installed. I'm not liable in anyway for an explosion via the cylinder as far as I am aware was installed to meet regulations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pocster Posted November 13, 2018 Author Share Posted November 13, 2018 8 minutes ago, JSHarris said: The problem is as @Nickfromwales has said, the outside drain, D2, can freeze, get blocked with snow or whatever and then there is no where for the explosive pressure build up to go, if something like the boiler stat fails and the tank overheats. A leaking PRV should be fixed as soon as the leak is spotted, not "fixed" by taking the tundish out so the leak isn't visible any more. Maybe JS ; I can't go back to him and say that. Piss him off too!. So I'll let the photo 'go' ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pocster Posted November 13, 2018 Author Share Posted November 13, 2018 (edited) Can I have some wine now to release stress? Edited November 13, 2018 by pocster 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newhome Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 5 minutes ago, pocster said: Can I have some wine now to release stress? Just don’t drink it from one of the bottles in the photo by accident ... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 You can get alarms to fit on a tundish... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pocster Posted November 13, 2018 Author Share Posted November 13, 2018 12 minutes ago, Onoff said: You can get alarms to fit on a tundish... Really ????? you got a link ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 3 minutes ago, pocster said: Really ????? you got a link ?? Erm...no, I just know you can get them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pocster Posted November 13, 2018 Author Share Posted November 13, 2018 Just now, Onoff said: Erm...no, I just know you can get them... I just googled it - they do exist . Easier to just stick a Cctv camera in there staring at it :-)) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newhome Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 21 minutes ago, pocster said: I just googled it - they do exist . Easier to just stick a Cctv camera in there staring at it :-)) Don’t your tenants mind you spying on them everywhere? One might conclude that you are a voyeur! ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pocster Posted November 13, 2018 Author Share Posted November 13, 2018 6 minutes ago, newhome said: Don’t your tenants mind you spying on them everywhere? One might conclude that you are a voyeur! ? I couldn’t give an f what they do as long as they don’t damage my property ! . It cost a small fortune to renovate!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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