At Loggerheads With UFH Supplier Over Design Layout

[slidersx200]

Latest fall out is with the supplier for our underfloor heating goods. In short, I paid a £210 design fee and am far from satisfied with the work produced and the supplier has failed to offer any revision in a week. As the materials were delivered yesterday and I have tradespeople queued up to go, rather than get locked in debate with them any further, I requested a refund of the fee today for the following reasons:

 

1. In the Lounge the pipes are shown as running straight through the chimney breast which cannot physically be done.
2. In the Utility Room the pipes are shown as running under the built in cabinetry; a practice that should be avoided to prevent damage to the units and/or any of their contents that may be affected by heat.
3. In the Boot Room the pipes are shown as running under the cabinetry where the sink is; best avoided as in point 2.
4. In the Guest Bedroom En Suite the pipes are shown as running under the shower tray; a practice that should be avoided to prevent the waste trap from being dried out, which would result in a smell coming from the drains.
5. In the Guest Bedroom a pipe is shown running through the exterior wall on the RHS where the window is located. This is not physically possible.
6. Where the Hall runs North-South on the plan the pipes supplying rooms off the hall are crossed in numerous places by the pipes shown as being laid to heat the Hall itself. The potential for undesired heat concentration and pipe damage in an area of high traffic could have been avoided had more care have been taken in creating the layout. Your suggestion to bury pipework in the insulation layer would create additional, unnecessary work and cost.
7. In the WC the pipes are shown running straight under the toilet, a practice that should be avoided as in point 4.
8. Where the Hall runs East-West to the Living Room every pipe supplying the Study, Living Room, Formal Dining Room and Kitchen is crossed by the pipes laid to heat the Hall itself. Best avoided and unnecessary as in point 6.
9. The pipes supplying the Kitchen are shown to cross every pipe run in the Living Room, another area of high traffic, being the main thoroughfare from the Hall to the Kitchen. Best avoided as in point 6.
10. In the Kitchen the pipes are shown as running under the island, best avoided as in point 2 and confirmed by the fact the pipes are not shown as running under the other cabinets in the Kitchen.
11. No provision has been made for heating to the Pantry, despite acknowledgement it was to be included in the plan on 20/06/16 and its inclusion in the final quote received on 22/06/16.
12. I have clearly stated that my preference for the layout in general was the "reverse inverted"/"counterflow"/"bifilar" design rather than the "meandering"/"parallel" design received as it is well documented to provide a more even spread of temperature across the floor; this has not been actioned.

 

The response I received leaves me far from satisfied, but before I take the matter further I'd appreciate a reality check in case I have unrealistic expectations. Their response is below and the "design" in question is attached. Comments and feedback greatly appreciated.

 

"The plan as requested and supplied is a special order and once started cannot be cancelled in retrospect or be refunded.

It has been prepared by an experienced heating engineer with over 20 years experience. It is based on the limited information provided.

It is to a standard that will enable any suitably experienced installer to ensure the heat outputs meet the required levels based on the information provided . It is not intended to be and cannot be, due to limited information, an installation instruction. On site considerations are always a factor of designs carried out in this way. The very nature of underfloor heating will require pipes to cross each other or go through rooms."

 

FWIW, the supplier is one known, used and respected by some members here.

Layout Plan - 180716.pdf

Edited July 27, 2016 by slidersx200

[PeterW]

so they used LoopCAD which you can download as a trial and do yourself ... 

 

There are are ways of sorting that although it took me a couple of hours to get my head around how it works - looks to have been done using the auto layout function. 

 

Seems to be a lot of zones though which does cause problems - was that your request..?

 

I agree - it doesn't seem ideal and I would be really annoyed if I paid £210 for that..!

[Nickfromwales]

@slidersx200

Micheal, I've just seen that plan and agree. I've just spoken to Byron at Boulder and asked him to personally review it urgently / at his next earliest convenience. 

He said he's not familiar with it off hand and asked that I email him the project details, which I did at 15:54 today. 

Ill come back to you ASAP and see if we can get something sorted. 

?

[slidersx200]

@PeterW I requested the ground floor be split into 6 zones.

 

@Nickfromwales The blue text in the OP was received today at 13.39, signed off by Byron and I have spoken with him on the phone several times in the last two days about it, so I would say he should be familiar enough with the matter. The list of issues is an excerpt from my email to him at 10.33 this morning, sent at his request for me to put my concerns in writing.

[Nickfromwales]

Ok, I see. 

I'll await his response and see what, if any, influence I've had  

[Barney12]

I'm staggered at the incompetence of that design. I know nothing about UFH but frankly most of the errors are common sense. 

 

I've said it time and time again but quite how the "average man" is supposed to navigate the complexities of heating and DHW in a passive new build is beyond me. 

[Ferdinand]

OT: Have we got a sticky for useful software packages?

 

I have never heard of loopCAD, but then mine was installed by the previous people :-).

 

Ferdinand

[slidersx200]

I emailed Byron today asking him to reconsider his refusal of a refund as I maintain the plan is not fit for purpose. It is disappointing to be in this position as Boulder developments were recommended to me on Ebuild and as much as I would love to be able to recommend them to others, owing to the level of service received to date I simply couldn't. I hope they swallow their pride and offer a resolution, and will keep you all updated as to whether they apologise for the standard of design offered and offer a refund or whether they choose to stand over this design as the quality of service one should expect from Boulder Developments.

[slidersx200]

Just carried out a quick stock take of the goods we received and discovered a slight problem if we were indeed supposed to be able to follow the design given.

 

Does anyone know of a way to make 100m pipe rolls (the longest we were given) cover distances of 104m, 113m or 117.9m or is this further indication of an error on behalf of Boulder Developments and/or their designer?

 

Another pipe run is shown as 99.4m on the drawing; would you be happy to go for it with a 100m roll?

 

If you didn't laugh, you'd cry!

[Barney12]

1 hour ago, slidersx200 said:

Another pipe run is shown as 99.4m on the drawing; would you be happy to go for it with a 100m roll?

 

 

No!

 

I assuming coupling is frowned upon?

[ToughButterCup]

10 minutes ago, Barney12 said:

I assuming coupling is frowned upon?

 

Easy Barney, easy there lad! It's before 9:00 pm.

[jack]

19 minutes ago, Barney12 said:

I assuming coupling is frowned upon?

 

Yes, to be avoided unless accessible for servicing.

[PeterW]

2 hours ago, slidersx200 said:

Just carried out a quick stock take of the goods we received and discovered a slight problem if we were indeed supposed to be able to follow the design given.

 

Does anyone know of a way to make 100m pipe rolls (the longest we were given) cover distances of 104m, 113m or 117.9m or is this further indication of an error on behalf of Boulder Developments and/or their designer?

 

Another pipe run is shown as 99.4m on the drawing; would you be happy to go for it with a 100m roll?

 

If you didn't laugh, you'd cry!

Sorry I saw those and thought it was just a 600m reel they had sent you ..! 

 

Joins are not ideal unless you really have to - I've done a couple with LoopCAD and you can set maximum lengths so it sounds like user issues tbh... 

 

[Nickfromwales]

: bows his head :

3 hours ago, slidersx200 said:

Just carried out a quick stock take of the goods we received and discovered a slight problem if we were indeed supposed to be able to follow the design given.

 

Does anyone know of a way to make 100m pipe rolls (the longest we were given) cover distances of 104m, 113m or 117.9m or is this further indication of an error on behalf of Boulder Developments and/or their designer?

 

Another pipe run is shown as 99.4m on the drawing; would you be happy to go for it with a 100m roll?

 

If you didn't laugh, you'd cry!

 

Are you serious? In fairness I've never asked for a design, as I'm usually the one making them. I only ever ask people for a price on the kit I want. 

It seems BD outsource this service, at their peril. . 

Got a funeral tomw morning then I'll get back on the phone. 

[slidersx200]

Thanks @Nickfromwales, I've not had any response yet.

 

My plumber and I have roughly worked out a way to supply all rooms without the need for any pipes crossing over and now just need to accurately measure out the loops to see if it will work with the materials we've been supplied.  

[Nickfromwales]

Are the design loop lengths in excess of the coils supplied?

[slidersx200]

I received six 100m lengths and five 85m lengths, which means I also have eleven rolls for thirteen circuits. 

Edited July 27, 2016 by slidersx200

[slidersx200]

Half the battle is now done as the install was completed today and successfully tested to 6 bar, which just leaves the matter of some sort of recompense to hopefully be worked out with the supplier.

 

I roughly worked out the layout in terms of zones (as defined by the room stats), areas covered by a length of pipe and estimated length of pipe required for each loop (either 85 or 100m based on the goods we received). Here is the "plan" I created:

 

 

The plumber was then responsible for how he laid the pipes on the floor and not only managed to create a layout that places each flow and return adjacent to each other, but did so without one solitary pipe being crossed by another.

 

We also kept all loops under 100m, therefore avoiding the need for any joints, have the correct pipe density in the hallways and included the pantry within one of the loops to the kitchen.

 

I think our achievements make a total farce of the design I paid for and everything that was said in its defence by the supplier.

 

Under stair manifolds in the hallway

 

 

Two pipes detour out of the hallway before the pinch point at the far end 

 

 

In the Living Room and Formal Dining Area we managed to avoid the need for any pipes to cross

 

 

The Kitchen is served by three circuits

 

 

One of which also serves the Pantry at increased centres

 

Edited August 3, 2016 by slidersx200

[jack]

Well done.  

 

The price you paid should have gotten you a highly competent piece of design work (the cost was more than a full day's work for most trades, even in the south east).  Stick to your guns and let us know how you get on.

[Nickfromwales]

Clearly, the celebration here is that you found a good plumber. 

Im lost for words as to how this has been responded to, and can only hope that Byron will come back to me after his holiday and offer some resolve. I will most definitely be providing closure from this matter, through accounts of my own exchanges, by means of posting here accordingly with the outcome. 

Ill hold off recommending a screed company 

[jack]

3 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Ill hold off recommending a screed company 

 

 

[slidersx200]

25 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

I'll hold off recommending a screed company 

 

Don't worry, screeders are booked and coming on Friday 

 

Fast dry screed should be well enough on in 3 weeks to let the painter in all being well.

[Nickfromwales]

33 minutes ago, jack said:

 

 

Git

[joe90]

Sliders, did you ever get an apology or even better your design fee back? I have just had a design by another company and reckon I can do better myself but did buy their kit as recommended by JSH.

[PeterW]

You can download the software and do it yourself easier - yes it's in US measurements but it's not rocket science...

 

loopCAD is what you need - free for 30 days