Help with kitchen renovation/ 1st house.

[Onoff]

1 minute ago, zoothorn said:

Good suggestion.. I do want above-ikea quality tho/ but certainly likely to be cheapest.

 

Crikey I still feel way off even a plan to redo this simple kitchen.. a real sod with no-one to physically see & advise me.

 

I just bought a 1.8m beach effect worktop from there, £60, for my elderly parents. Quite impressed tbh. I'm putting in a freestanding 1000mm base unit and just needed a cheap top that near matches the existing.

[Onoff]

Just realised our old breakfast bar was 500mm wide, cut from a random bit of someone's cast off 600mm one. 250mm radiused one end so straight sides. The top was I think covered in Fablon and I edged it in white pvc trunking lid!

 

Found an old pic when making the current bar leg and foot rest. You can see the jig cut, pocketed and biscuit jointed end:

 

[PeterW]

@zoothorn it sounds like you are reasonably happy dealing with wood so why not go with solid wood surfaces and paint the cupboards ...?? A paint finish means you can “hide” any alterations to the doors or drawers, and timber work surface is easy to work with. 

 

As I said before, Homebase have this

 

https://www.homebase.co.uk/acacia-oiled-hardwood-kitchen-worktop-220-x-60-x-2-6cm_p400774

 

Looks good, easy to work with and can be waxed with Osmo or something similar as it’s oiled.  

 

Laminate worktops need precision cutting and you can’t sand out any imperfections - £150 for worktops and paint and you will have that kitchen transformed. 

 

 

[newhome]

16 minutes ago, PeterW said:

it sounds like you are reasonably happy dealing with wood so why not go with solid wood surfaces and paint the cupboards ...??

 

+1. That kitchen will be transformed by a nice solid wood worktop, new sink, tiles,  plinth, and painted cupboard doors with more modern handles. What you have isn't terrible in terms of design, and you are restricted with such a small space anyway, so you just need an updated look. 

[zoothorn]

Godamm how annoying.. I'd go straight for that wood top acacia stuff, but no homebase anywhere near me. No post. Only option hire a van.. ups cost 5x inc fuel probably/ so no can do.

[Onoff]

2 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Godamm how annoying.. I'd go straight for that wood top acacia stuff, but no homebase anywhere near me. No post. Only option hire a van.. ups cost 5x inc fuel probably/ so no can do.

 

Is it less than 2.2m left to right in your first post's picture?

[zoothorn]

4 minutes ago, Onoff said:

 

Is it less than 2.2m left to right in your first post's picture?

 

2.23!

[PeterW]

You can make 30mm disappear anyway ...

 

2.2m will go in most cars with the seats down and boot tied down. 

[zoothorn]

Ah I see why the Q.. ok yes I can get 2.4m if needs be in car no probs. And If the 2.2m went down along my laptop worktop, with the corner cut off, Id have a bit to spare.

 

So is the idea of joining this 2.6cm stuff, same-same mitre jobwise as the 44mm stuff? or being wood does it mean a different joint?

 

I would be a bit worried about only 2.6cm & wood.. Im in an extremely moist area here, I mean green mould on the sink I just live with it so frequently it comes back/ outer house walls too/ record inner sleeves & paper pictures most often are wibbly due to climate.. even my lungs had to adapt: an odd almost 'microclimate' in this welsh valley. If such a good price, I'd be concerned surface might bobble/ expand after 2 years.

[Ferdinand]

42 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

 

2.23!

 

Upstand along the back made from something 40mm+ thick.

 

eg a 150mm x 50mm plank of wood (ideally hardwood) done with something like polyurethane or waterproof yacht varnish. I have one that was done with bullnose skirting board back in 2013 behind a kitchen sink, and remarkably it has survived this far.

 

Or a row of border tiles that normally live in bathrooms come in a similar dimension. Put a request in the Marketplace and somebody may have something left over.

Edited June 22, 2018 by Ferdinand

[Ferdinand]

13 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Ah I see why the Q.. ok yes I can get 2.4m if needs be in car no probs. And If the 2.2m went down along my laptop worktop, with the corner cut off, Id have a bit to spare.

 

So is the idea of joining this 2.6cm stuff, same-same mitre jobwise as the 44mm stuff? or being wood does it mean a different joint?

 

I would be a bit worried about only 2.6cm & wood.. Im in an extremely moist area here, I mean green mould on the sink I just live with it so frequently it comes back/ outer house walls too/ record inner sleeves & paper pictures most often are wibbly due to climate.. even my lungs had to adapt: an odd almost 'microclimate' in this welsh valley. If such a good price, I'd be concerned surface might bobble/ expand after 2 years.

 

This may be a worm escaping from the can.

 

Are you properly ventilated and insulated, especially in the kitchen?

 

F

 

[Onoff]

I'd biscuit joint the boards square but at the join put a reinforcing strip underneath D4 glued and screwed.

[zoothorn]

6 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

 

This may be a worm escaping from the can.

 

Are you properly ventilated and insulated, especially in the kitchen?

 

F

 

 

Its not a damp internal issue.. the kitchen is dry, but a very unusual area atmosphere. Not now of course.

 

Insulated.. no the houses biggest prob/ it is a 'modern' extention, 1980's, with appaling insulation (10mm 80's stuff onto inner block course = as good as none at all) & so its diabolically cold. Loft above wadded recently, but made no difference due to so much cold whacking in 1) thru walls, & 2) up from floor, & 3) in thru (always poor on insulation) 2 big upvc windows. One window's cloudy inside so needs replacing/ another thread be warned.. but it'd make little difference. We're talking unpleasantly cold cuttlery, worktops/ see your breath at times. Put on the 'leccy wall heater & the mice in loft above it get warm.. but I can only just feel any benefit of it an hr later. Cheap house you see.

[Ferdinand]

47 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

 

Its not a damp internal issue.. the kitchen is dry, but a very unusual area atmosphere. Not now of course.

 

Insulated.. no the houses biggest prob/ it is a 'modern' extention, 1980's, with appaling insulation (10mm 80's stuff onto inner block course = as good as none at all) & so its diabolically cold. Loft above wadded recently, but made no difference due to so much cold whacking in 1) thru walls, & 2) up from floor, & 3) in thru (always poor on insulation) 2 big upvc windows. One window's cloudy inside so needs replacing/ another thread be warned.. but it'd make little difference. We're talking unpleasantly cold cuttlery, worktops/ see your breath at times. Put on the 'leccy wall heater & the mice in loft above it get warm.. but I can only just feel any benefit of it an hr later. Cheap house you see.

 

I think building a heat loss model of your house may be a good place to start. You want the heat loss spreadsheet at the top of @JSHarris‘s blog page.

 

And start addressing the very very basics such as draughts under doors. Eventually you will make it warmer. The colder it is, the more impact you can have with simple cheap things.

 

F

 

 

Edited June 22, 2018 by Ferdinand

[zoothorn]

The house is a basic stone C.1830 miner's cottage 1 big room, low ceiling/ beams.. with 2 bad 80's additions: top floor (2 beds) & the ground floor kitchen/ bathroom.

 

Its so badly built onto, not only is the kitchen & b'room bone-chillingly cold, but huge gaps from the roof down insides of all top floor walls > cold hurtles down enterring big room below @ edges: Ive just finished plugging with expandifoam, now logburner not having to battle so much of a massive cold 'wad'. Still poor tho, as original floor slab is just concrete onto soil (wet too- so extra cold) & thick slate stone walls are like fridges (unlike say cotswold sandstone which always seem warm). Great for the 1 week of year when hot tho!

 

But the upper bedrooms are as much of a disaster as the kitchen/ b'room. Both beds are cocooned with cold walls due to A) the pathetic/ useless minimal 10mm 'insulation' tagged to inner [brick] course & B) inside plasterboard tagged onto wood frame has no insulation/ another 3" minimum gap here, right up to loft (untenable to get at to plug w'foam from loft as purlins etc all hampering access). Hugely unpleasantly cold, especially the march cold period. I had loft chaps add wads of loft stuff last summer.. not a fart of difference.

 

Insulation cavity Co's come out, with a possible grant I can get I know, but due to this crap 10mm rubbish they can''t do anything extra as box is ticked that walls 'have insulation', albeit as they said essentially none/ being the utter minimum at the time got away with. I think there was a period of grants in 80's here wherby folks could add xyz for cheap- the downside being a few Co's got too many jobs they did as cheaply as possible.

[Jeremy Harris]

21 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

 

I think building a heat loss model of your house may be a good place to start. You want the heat loss spreadsheet at the top of @JSHarris‘s blog page.

 

And start addressing the very very basics such as draughts under doors. Eventually you will make it warmer. The colder it is, the more impact you can have with simple cheap things.

 

F

 

 

 

 

The heat loss model is here: http://www.mayfly.eu/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Fabric-and-ventilation-heat-loss-calculator-Master.xls

 

I may well be able to help you with some estimated U values to populate it if you let us know the wall, door, window, and ceiling/roof construction, with any insulation.  If you list each in terms of material and thickness by layer (i.e., plaster, brick, cavity, brick, render outside) or similar, giving the materials and approximate thickness, I can have a stab at giving you estimated U values.  Knowing the starting point is key, as the whole reason for creating this spreadsheet was to allow fairly easy "what if?" studies, so that people can get the best bang for their buck when deciding what to fit.

[zoothorn]

Hi JSHarris- crikey the link is all a bit complicated for me & my simple house; what I certainly can do is give the construction of A & B areas.. which effectively actually I've mentioned all in fact so simple a house it is.

 

maybe I can pick this up on another thread- it would be hugely helpful for advice on this; Im only following my nose as far as it can go on the possible solutions/ Ive come to a brick wall bar 'rip out the top floor internals & start over'.. which tho I know is the proper job/ would be superb Im reluctant to bc A) can't really afford to/ a huge & stress inducing job (constant n'bor stress keeps me busy itself) certainly not a pro job, tho in theory I maybe do myself.. but the time it'd take/ mess.. stressful for a novice w'out help. B) Ive put down new carpet in main bedroom.

 

I'll just concentrate on one small job at a time. Kitchen.

 

Are cupboards I have lkely to have been 'made to measure for my kitchen'.. or more likely to be 'standard size units'?  

 

Doors seem to be W 60cm, 50, 40. H 46. Drawers seems to be H 16cm. Industry std dims? If Im going for those acacia wood tops, wood doors will be OTT wood.. so mayeb new doors/ btm strips, tops, new sink/tap. Repaint & re-lino 1st & last jobs.

 

 

 

 

[newhome]

They’ll be standard units. If you are going for the acacia worktop (that I think will look great btw) you won’t want wooden doors so you can decide whether to keep them and paint them a colour like the additional pictures in the acacia link or replace with new ones. Go and have a look round the diy sheds to get an idea what you want to do, what you like, and how much it’s likely to cost. The bottom strip is called a plinth. A more modern sink and taps doesn't have to cost a fortune either. 

 

Wood effect vinyl would be a good option for the floor to complement the worktop / units you choose. 

 

 

[Ferdinand]

If you are doing work on the kitchen, then it will be worth you considering inserting some insulation onto your walls. It should involve relatively little work/expense and pay for itself fairly quickly through smaller heating bills.

 

But the real benefit will be in comfort.

 

Even 25mm Celotex on an uninsulated wall will make a huge difference. 50mm would be be better.

 

You would lose about 2-3” off every dimension where you insulate.

Edited June 23, 2018 by Ferdinand

[zoothorn]

Ferdinand that's what I know the room needs.. but logistics of it/ the hassle & extra big chunk of cost.. & also if Ive got cold coming in thru poor upvc windows (frames surely where cold comes in regardless of however much VG double glass between.. being crap hollow plastic) & poor floor too it might be only a small benefit? eg folks said once the small loft above it wadded out.. 'huge difference'. None at all afaict. And thats effectively one of the 6 sides of a box insulated. So I ask why.. & think that unless all 6 done, & window frames addressed too (so thats 2 new whole windows then) I have a feeling it won't give the comfort you might think, as cold will still pour in up from floor & in thru windows.. & also back door/ but a heavy curtain across will help that.

 

Back door fitted last year- appalling howden's rubbish the seals are falling out, its warped/ bowed, kept swelling so had to be rehung twice.. & it looks dreadful like a faux wood plastic door with their recommended stuff I put on. I kicked up a mighty stink.. & they gave my money back! but Im lumped with it really/ cant face replacing it.

 

So Im reluctant to go to howden's for new cubpoard doors., but choice here few places.

 

Can anyone recommend a good quality, ie not thin steel, stainless steel kitchen sink? maybe £120 or so.

 

 

[PeterW]

39 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

being crap hollow plastic)

 

Thats what makes them energy efficient - the hollow chambers act as insulation, so the more channels the better. 

[PeterW]

Start searching eBay for sinks - new ones come up pretty often for less than £75. Keep to a brand such as Franke and you won’t go far wrong. Avoid the sheds - quality is appalling 

. 

[Ferdinand]

What do you thjnk the bill will be? It maybe less than you think. Having renovated 5+ old properties over the last several years. I find that the material cost is roughly 10-15 per sqm for decent boarding out and insulation.

 

The issue is that once you have committed to new parts of your kitchen, you lock in a cold kitchen for 5-10 years or more.

 

What are your energy bills, tariff, and consumption?

[newhome]

I think @Ferdinand is right. If you are going to the hassle of fitting the kitchen out it’s worth the extra hassle of insulating it too otherwise it may be a decision you regret for years to come. It looks like a fairly small area to do so it shouldn’t be too terrible although these things always feel rubbish when you’re in the middle of bedlam actually doing them lol, but rest assured you won’t be the only person thinking that. If the enormity of the insulation task is putting you off then break it down into small chunks, so walls behind kitchen units to start with. And tackle the next small area when you’re good and ready. Rome wasn’t built in a day, and every little bit you do should help address the heat efficiency of the house and one day you will notice a step change. It’s only if you do nothing that things won’t improve. 

 

Where is the draft coming from through the windows? That sounds like a problem to try to address (without fitting new windows). 

 

Also what heating do you have in the house? 

 

[zoothorn]

Ok food for thought admittedly. It makes total sense. But as I said the floor is as bad as the walls (I can just -feel-/ sense there's no insulation under the lino).

 

Ok what does it involve, if I were to do one wall at a time, like the kitchen sink end-? I have the bare block painted white then lets say.

 

The air in the frame acts like insulation? but surely this only figures.. if there's no air/ vacuum like the windows.