Help with kitchen renovation/ 1st house.

[Onoff]

@zoothorn not sure if you answered but what size are those battens?

[zoothorn]

Great help chaps, really grateful- so much easier to see these ref pics again than haviong to go back to pg5 or 6 too/ appreciated.

 

Soryy onoff but as I cannot get notifications of replies, I posted the Q without knowing a reply had been made.. its often only when I reload the page that I see new replies, which I continually forget to do. This is why i've been trying & trying to get notifications- but can't ('m also in a collossal ammount of pain on v. strong but useless painkillers- doesn't help things).

 

Ok so I will get one of those guns- I loathe expanifoam can jobs with a passion. Now the gap between my blocks seems to be nearing 2.5+".. so will my can of no-nonsense normal foam be ok or will it just fall down into the void/ maybe I need super-dupa-expandifoam stuff to span it?

[zoothorn]

1 hour ago, Onoff said:

@zoothorn not sure if you answered but what size are those battens?

 

25 x 50 battens

 

[zoothorn]

2 hours ago, newhome said:

The rest is looking good though. You will get a real sense of achievement when it's all finished and properly insulated. Much more satisfying than wimping out and just doing a cosmetic job. 

 

 

 

Yup already getting a sense of achievement.. the battens went on great (tho finding them under the PB is a daunting prospect/ some had to be 46 cm or 50cm not the std 40cm due to the 2xsocket or window edge intrusions. I'm one for doing a proper job now Im getting on a bit.. so now thinking to do the reveals whilst I'm at it.

 

The floor is one major source of cold along with these 2 walls & the fogged/ shot big upvc window, one in the pics.. but don't think I can do anything about that.

 

Got the info re. grip adhesive for this problem batten. thanks. Will get on monday @ screwfix with a foam gun trigger thingy.

[Ferdinand]

11 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

 

 

Yup already getting a sense of achievement.. the battens went on great (tho finding them under the PB is a daunting prospect/ some had to be 46 cm or 50cm not the std 40cm due to the 2xsocket or window edge intrusions. I'm one for doing a proper job now Im getting on a bit.. so now thinking to do the reveals whilst I'm at it.

 

The floor is one major source of cold along with these 2 walls & the fogged/ shot big upvc window, one in the pics.. but don't think I can do anything about that.

 

Got the info re. grip adhesive for this problem batten. thanks. Will get on monday @ screwfix with a foam gun trigger thingy.

 

Tip. Mark the edges of the battens on the ceiling or floor with a soft or carpenters pencil before you cover them. Comes off with a soft rubber or foam pad easily.

 

You can find your battens by tapping with a tool handle or a batteb detector device.

 

F

 

 

[zoothorn]

6 hours ago, PeterW said:

 

The gaps are mostly 350mm (so battens become 400mm in centres) but you can see some are narrower - never wider !

 

Peter, can you tell me why never wider? Im still not sure why the fig of 400, apart from it being 3 x 440 = 1200.

 

Or in theory is 600 + 600 just as reasonable to do..?

[zoothorn]

3 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

 

Tip. Mark the edges of the battens on the ceiling or floor with a soft or carpenters pencil before you cover them. Comes off with a soft rubber or foam pad easily.

 

You can find your battens by tapping with a tool handle or a batteb detector device.

 

F

 

 

 

Hi Ferdinand- ah I see so you mean use a mark on say the ceiling, once the PB is on then track the mark back onto the PB?

 

Not following the next bit tho.. using a tool handle or a ***? I had thought whether I could use my metal/ stud detector thing to NOT sound when its off the metal C'tex surface & on the batten. Not sure if that would work tho. Is this sort of what you mean?

[joe90]

When I plasterboard a wall I mark the middle of studs (in your case battens) on the ceiling and floor, after the PB is on use a straight edge to mark a  line up the board to show where the screws go. I never gap more than 400mm as the board will “give” (bend) too much. Also take a picture with your iPad / phone with tape measure against the wall (I did this with my UFH pipes in case I needed to fix to the floor).

Edited July 28, 2018 by joe90

[Onoff]

1 hour ago, zoothorn said:

 

25 x 50 battens

 

 

I think you may struggle to fit "25mm" Celotex in between 25mm battens in that the Celotex might be more than the nominal 25mm thick it says it is. I hope I'm proved wrong! 

 

It was why earlier in the thread I said about packing behind the battens.

 

40 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

 

Peter, can you tell me why never wider? Im still not sure why the fig of 400, apart from it being 3 x 440 = 1200.

 

Or in theory is 600 + 600 just as reasonable to do..?

 

In what school does 3x440=1200?

[Ferdinand]

32 minutes ago, Onoff said:

 

I think you may struggle to fit "25mm" Celotex in between 25mm battens in that the Celotex might be more than the nominal 25mm thick it says it is. I hope I'm proved wrong! 

 

It was why earlier in the thread I said about packing behind the battens.

 

 

In what school does 3x440=1200?

 

Various newspapers and our ‘top’ universities... ?

Edited July 28, 2018 by Ferdinand

[Onoff]

1 hour ago, zoothorn said:

 

Hi Ferdinand- ah I see so you mean use a mark on say the ceiling, once the PB is on then track the mark back onto the PB?

 

Not following the next bit tho.. using a tool handle or a ***? I had thought whether I could use my metal/ stud detector thing to NOT sound when its off the metal C'tex surface & on the batten. Not sure if that would work tho. Is this sort of what you mean?

 

Mark the ceiling LIGHTLY with a soft pencil before you fit the boards so you know where the centreline of the battens are. Like this though maybe NOT with a BFO green marker! The line should be perpendicular to the wall and long enough so the pb doesn't obscure it:

 

 

What @Ferdinand means is if say you've fitted a board and aren't sure where the battens are you can use the end of a screwdriver handle to locate the batten. A hollow sound means you're likely NOT on a batten. A denser, sharper sound means the batten is there 'ish". AVOID the need to do this and mark on ceiling AND floor. You can just draw a line between the two and that will g'tee you're on the centreline.

[zoothorn]

42 minutes ago, Onoff said:

 

I think you may struggle to fit "25mm" Celotex in between 25mm battens in that the Celotex might be more than the nominal 25mm thick it says it is. I hope I'm proved wrong! 

 

It was why earlier in the thread I said about packing behind the battens.

 

 

In what school does 3x440=1200?

 

Did I say 440? 400. 3 x 400 = 1200. is that right?

 

I noted your packing info onoff.. Ive put slivers of 3mm board behind each fixing point to give me 28mm. I hope that's enough!

 

Ah I didn't know the PB would 'give' if more than 400mm.. eek. I hope that 460mm gap will be ok. The 500mm gap is hidden by units so ok. I'll bear this in mind re. the trickier wall (new sink etc.. lord alive thats gonna be the biggest sod of the job).

 

Edited July 28, 2018 by zoothorn

[Onoff]

1 hour ago, zoothorn said:

 

Peter, can you tell me why never wider? Im still not sure why the fig of 400, apart from it being 3 x 440 = 1200.

 

Or in theory is 600 + 600 just as reasonable to do..?

 

At 600mm the pb wont be supported enough and will be too flexible.

[Onoff]

1 minute ago, zoothorn said:

 

Did I say 440? 400. 3 x 400 = 1200. is that right?

 

I noted your packing info onoff.. Ive put slivers of 3mm board behind each fixing point to give me 28mm. I hope that's enough!

 

Ah I didn't know the PB would 'give' if more than 400mm.. eek. I hope that 460mm gap will be ok. The 500mm gap is hidden by units so ok. I'll bear this in mind re. the trickier wall (new sink etc.. lord alive thats gonna be the biggest sod of the job).

 

 

3mm packs, good man, fingers crossed. 460mm will be alright!

[zoothorn]

Understood re. the BFO green line etc.. & the back of screwdriver tap/ I'll make sure for an accurate C'line on both ceiling & floor.. need all the help i can prior to doing PB for 1st time. Not looking fwd to it tbh. I am looking fwd to the C'tex'ing tho.. satisfying & fairly quick: is the idea of fixing it flat ready for the PB job, by using some gubbins on wall to help.. or cut it so precisely as to jamming it between as only way of suring it in-?

[PeterW]

If you’re full fill with insulation then two things ... you won’t hear the noise change much as you hit a batten or not as it’s packed back to the wall, and regular stud finders will struggle as all they will see is the foil on the insulation..!

 

mark the ceiling in pencil and the floor in sharpie marker !!

[Onoff]

2 hours ago, zoothorn said:

Great help chaps, really grateful- so much easier to see these ref pics again than haviong to go back to pg5 or 6 too/ appreciated.

 

Soryy onoff but as I cannot get notifications of replies, I posted the Q without knowing a reply had been made.. its often only when I reload the page that I see new replies, which I continually forget to do. This is why i've been trying & trying to get notifications- but can't ('m also in a collossal ammount of pain on v. strong but useless painkillers- doesn't help things).

 

Ok so I will get one of those guns- I loathe expanifoam can jobs with a passion. Now the gap between my blocks seems to be nearing 2.5+".. so will my can of no-nonsense normal foam be ok or will it just fall down into the void/ maybe I need super-dupa-expandifoam stuff to span it?

 

Given the times people on here have told me the same thing until it's sunk in I'm quite happy to keep repeating myself! :)

 

Careful with the drugs and tools / measuring. I've made some classic clangers just on ale!

 

Foam gun "etiquette" is very important or you'll find yourself buying a new gun! READ THE INSTRUCTIONS that come with it. Buy a can or two of No Nonsense Foam Cleaner whilst you're there as well. Make sure you buy GUN foam too, I've accidentally bought the hand held stuff before when in a rush. Soudal Low Expansion is expensive but v.good.

 

The 2.5" gap. Don't fill all at once. Ideally a strip of eps in there first like I did to bulk the gap out. Eps from packaging would be fine tbh. If relying on foam then you will need to do a line left to right say 1/2"  thick and wait for it to set.Then another thin line until you fill the gap. Top tip to make foam stick better to a substrate or dried foam  - use a little spray bottle filled with clean water to dampen the substrate. I use an old Detox kitchen spray bottle.

 

 

[Onoff]

14 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Understood re. the BFO green line etc.. & the back of screwdriver tap/ I'll make sure for an accurate C'line on both ceiling & floor.. need all the help i can prior to doing PB for 1st time. Not looking fwd to it tbh. I am looking fwd to the C'tex'ing tho.. satisfying & fairly quick: is the idea of fixing it flat ready for the PB job, by using some gubbins on wall to help.. or cut it so precisely as to jamming it between as only way of suring it in-?

 

Try and cut it pretty accurately I would. At 25mm thick you could virtually cut with a craft knife with the blade out a bit and GLOVES!

 

Sawing PIR makes horrible dust. Some advocate cutting 5mm short and filling the edge with foam. If I'm a "bit" out I might run a thin bead of foam up one batten then push the pir against that and in between the other batten. Foam expands to fill the gap.

 

Oh, and photograph against a tape / mark the wall either side etc where any horizontal battens are. Any wall cupboards going on this wall?

Edited July 28, 2018 by Onoff

[Onoff]

Q from me.....

 

I debated, but didn't, sticking ordinary 25mm foil faced pir to my reveals then ordinary pb onto that. It would have been too thick aside from whether it would have worked. Hence I went for the 27 mm insulated pb.

 

Would it have worked?

[Onoff]

@zoothorn, the floor in this room you're doing...

 

I assume this is the badly done, "modern" extension that you're battening out, so it has a damp course in the walls and damp proof membrane under the floor? 

 

Get the gaps round that window sorted and it should help a great deal. It amazed me how I could feel the draught through the tiniest of holes when I was blocking things up. In fact as the gaps to fill got smaller it seemed to concentrate the cold air blowing through!

[zoothorn]

All good info onoff taking on board- I just got back from town to get a screwfix gun, but just read these ^ replies: so, have I got the right no-nonsense can for it? I don't know now. I had this before/ a std foam with the std straw attatchment. The gun specs said it goes with normal cans.. so what's what I'm not sure now. Had planned to do this job today you see.

 

I notice on your reveal pics a blue dpc involved: as you can see from mine, looking in my draughty sill gap I don't see this. What should I do?

[newhome]

39 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

I notice on your reveal pics a blue dpc involved: as you can see from mine, looking in my draughty sill gap I don't see this. What should I do?

 

@Onoff added the blue dpc after addressing the gaps around the window and before plasterboarding so you should be good to go in getting your gaps / draught sorted today. I think he said somewhere that you could even use rubble sacks for the dpm. 

 

 

[Onoff]

1 hour ago, zoothorn said:

All good info onoff taking on board- I just got back from town to get a screwfix gun, but just read these ^ replies: so, have I got the right no-nonsense can for it? I don't know now. I had this before/ a std foam with the std straw attatchment. The gun specs said it goes with normal cans.. so what's what I'm not sure now. Had planned to do this job today you see.

 

I notice on your reveal pics a blue dpc involved: as you can see from mine, looking in my draughty sill gap I don't see this. What should I do?

 

If you have a foam gun you need "gun grade" foam. Look thru the Screwfix book and there'll often be a price for handheld or gun grade. Cans to screw on the guns have a 4 prong plastic bit on top. My fingers on two of the plastic bits:

 

 

The top of the gun grade cans looks the same as on these cans of gun cleaner:

 

 

One on the left is from T'station others are Screwfix No Nonsense brand. They come with the little red nozzle. You can either use as a conventional aerosol or screw onto the foam gun to clean it out. 

 

This is Screwfix own brand gun grade foam. It's cheap. It expands...a lot...as I guess it's meant to!

 

 

This is Soudal Low Expansion foam, better than the Screwfix one for sticking things on etc as well as not expanding so much:

 

https://www.screwfix.com/p/soudal-soudafoam-expanding-foam-gun-grade-750ml/5026d

 

Ref the blue dpm, over my battening I did the walls and ceiling with a continuous membrane or vapour control layer as a nod to draught proofing.

[zoothorn]

Damn got wrong foam then. Ok to planB: I'll have to try do the job with my foam & its sh*tty attatchment even if it can only be used for the sill job. So here's the wall done so far.. alas there'll be some in/ out PB variation over the battens.. but impossible for me to shim to level unless a days more spent on it (the wall badly fluctuated b4/ Ive done pretty well to level out some of it I think).. at least the units will hide alot.

 

I'm going back over your 27mm insulated PB info/ pics.. maybe this is the way to go if £feasable for a small area.

 

Onoff is it definite neccessary I use a dpc on the sill job?? I understand what they're for etc.. its just that this is a renovation rather than a build, ie, it had no dpc issue before, or any evidence of damp after recent rain. And yours is a continuation of the walls' dpc which looks like the latter stages of a complete build, unlike mine.

 

thx zoothornrollo

 

 

 

 

 

 

[zoothorn]

15 hours ago, Onoff said:

@zoothorn, the floor in this room you're doing...

 

I assume this is the badly done, "modern" extension that you're battening out, so it has a damp course in the walls and damp proof membrane under the floor? 

 

Get the gaps round that window sorted and it should help a great deal. It amazed me how I could feel the draught through the tiniest of holes when I was blocking things up. In fact as the gaps to fill got smaller it seemed to concentrate the cold air blowing through!

 

I have a feeling you're right. Its probably the cold air getting into these damn cavites thats causing not only the 3 rooms in this extention but both the bedrooms upstairs to be like fridges too.. so I wonder whether this cavity should be like mine are built, that being, open to the loft area so open effectively to the outside air? is that normal way to build a std 2-course room with a pitched roof above? I guess if so, then its the imperative to therefore PIR- protect all the weak points like the sill/ window areas.. rather than actually close the cavity gap at the top of the wall where it meets the loft. I just can't see any way of closing this cavity gap from the loft-side, as the roof timbers inhibits physically getting there. Especially the top floor/ house loft as the purlins are bang in the way, let alone squeezing into the tight corner- an awful prospect I think in fact totally untenable as an idea.

Edited July 29, 2018 by zoothorn