Buying part of a neighbour's garden - the process

[jack]

Thanks.

 

The solicitor has proposed to do this herself based on the current plan, but is suggesting it might be rejected and she won't be responsible if it is.

[Ferdinand]

@jack

 

I think that any words present are definitive in the interpretation of the plan.

 

The registry will check it carefully and may either com back to the submitter or put the application in a pending tray. I have experienced both while negotiating the sale of our site.

 

Even within the last 6 weeks the purchaser came back to me to sign another copy of a map on a sale where we received the permethrin months ago ... presumably someone is being persnickety.

 

You need to reach a decision, but it is equally important to follow up at appropriate points with the horse's mouth for the current stage to make sure that it is progressing and any issues get spotted then sorted.

 

Ferdinand

 

 

 

[jack]

Thanks @Ferdinand

 

8 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

I think that any words present are definitive in the interpretation of the plan.

 

This seems more in line with what the surveyor said.  He suggested that the plan she's asked for is really just making the job easier for the Land Registry, and isn't compulsory (and certainly doesn't need to be a formal document prepared by a surveyor).  He said that you could just mark up a copy of one of the other plans, for example, and refer to that.  

 

You need to reach a decision, but it is equally important to follow up at appropriate points with the horse's mouth for the current stage to make sure that it is progressing and any issues get spotted then sorted.

 

The horse, in this case, is presumably the Land Registry (rather than, eg, the solicitor)?  Will they talk to me directly about a particular application?

 

Thanks

[Ferdinand]

5 hours ago, jack said:

Thanks @Ferdinand

 

 

This seems more in line with what the surveyor said.  He suggested that the plan she's asked for is really just making the job easier for the Land Registry, and isn't compulsory (and certainly doesn't need to be a formal document prepared by a surveyor).  He said that you could just mark up a copy of one of the other plans, for example, and refer to that.  

 

 

The horse, in this case, is presumably the Land Registry (rather than, eg, the solicitor)?  Will they talk to me directly about a particular application?

 

Thanks

 

I don't see why not if you are the owner. Yes I mean the Land Registry.

 

There any be a sticky post over on Gardenlaw in one of the forums covering Land Registry maps and meanings etc by a poster called Conveyancer that may be a useful read.

 

Ferdinand

Edited November 2, 2016 by Ferdinand

[anna]

On 11/1/2016 at 21:18, Oz07 said:

You just need the black and white plan at 1:200 a3 then you can draw lines on it and shade yourself. Surveyor doesn't need to do that for u

Where can I get such a plan? We are having similar problem .

[PeterW]

Plenty of online providers - look on the Planning Portal and they have a list of links for planning plans. 

 

Some you can even draw the lines on online and then print - cost is about £12 or so. 

[TerryE]

+1.  There hasn't been a formal boundary dispute and the precise boundary is therefore by agreement, so it isn't a determined boundary and therefore a survey by an appropriate qualified surveyor isn't needed.

 

The neighbour's Building Society shouldn't have any issue so long as the transfer doesn't impact the value of the secured property to an extent that puts the loan into a risk category.  Incidentally we didn't submit a plan for the transferred land, only the new plan, because we only realised that we needed to correct our original registration when the LRO informed us of the overlap in registrations and the area impacted, so in our case the TP1 was implementing their recommended method of resolving the issue.

 

IMO, the most important thing is that both you and your neighbour agree precisely where the boundary is.   Having had a neighbour piss around relocating fence post behind a hedge that I planted on my side,  I am now a firm supporter of using concrete spurs to support any boundary fences.  The wooden uprights can be replaced without any doubt where the fence line should run.

[Calvinmiddle]

@jack  Do you have an update on dealing with the Land Registry, I'm getting to the stage where I will need to split my plot as I have accepted an offer on the old house and new house was built in the back garden.  Land Registry said they were too busy to split titles unless there was a chance of ownership.

 

But there isn't a dispute (as that would be by myself) so just trying to figure out the easiest way to get the tile split and recorded.

[jack]

We went via a solicitor in the end.  It took a few weeks to be recorded but seems to have gone through well enough.  

 

I suppose the issue you face here is that there isn't yet a different owner yet, but I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect them to record the split based on the fact that there's a separate dwelling involved (and one on which an offer has been accepted).

[Calvinmiddle]

What sort of level of detail did you give the LR, did you have to get a survey done or just take the plan that they have on file and draw another line on it and say its marked by a fence, ie the rough boundary not a determined one down to the nearest mm

[jack]

We needed our land re-drawn anyway, as the current land title isn't accurate.  We therefore had both blocks surveyed and the new boundary drawn by the surveyor.

 

If you're just drawing a line, I suppose you could do it on a copy of the current plans with some measurements to a permanent feature of some sort.  Not sure, sorry!

[TerryE]

2 hours ago, Calvinmiddle said:

What sort of level of detail did you give the LR, did you have to get a survey done or just take the plan that they have on file and draw another line on it and say its marked by a fence, ie the rough boundary not a determined one down to the nearest mm

@Declan52 Declan, there's a bunch of LR guidance notes on this.  But you need to submit a scale drawing of the plot showing the division.  It isn't a determined boundary, so pretty much anyone can do it.  If you had a local AT do your drawings for your planning applicaiton, he or she should be able to do it for a nominal fee, and this will be based on the digitised OS local plan anyway.

 

In your case it is probably worth getting a solicitor to represent you doing the registration because you need to think about the covenants that you need to include in the front plot, preferably now so you don't forget them when you come to sell it.  You also need to think about observations, e.g. if you have a loan on the newbuild, then the BSoc will normally want their interest recorded on the LRO title, but this should only be on the half that has the mortgage on it. 

 

But we found this process pretty straight forward -- at least this part.

 

[Calvinmiddle]

Hi Terry

 

Splitting the plot now as we have a buyer - talked to LR long time ago but they said that splitting a title with no change in ownership would not be a priority.  I asked what exactly that meant and the lady was kind enough to say that it would get but to the bottom of the pile and that due to cutbacks it would never rise to the top as the ones with a change of ownership would be prioritised.

 

So solicitor will be involved - more wanting to know what level of detail in the plan - fell out with the AT as I felt she was talking the p!$$ charging me for things that I would have expected her to have on the plans - like charging me to add dimensions to her plans so I could see what size rooms where.

 

 

[Declan52]

Not sure why you tagged me in this Terry but I did get my site from my mum so did go through this kind of process. 

We got the land registry drawing and drew a line on the plan where we wanted the boundary and sent it off. The Solictor dealt with all the legal bits.

Just make sure you include that you need access  to connect into any services, gas, electric,water or sewage if you need to other wise when the time comes you could get held to ransom.

 

[PeterW]

27 minutes ago, Calvinmiddle said:

Hi Terry

 

Splitting the plot now as we have a buyer - talked to LR long time ago but they said that splitting a title with no change in ownership would not be a priority.  I asked what exactly that meant and the lady was kind enough to say that it would get but to the bottom of the pile and that due to cutbacks it would never rise to the top as the ones with a change of ownership would be prioritised.

 

So solicitor will be involved - more wanting to know what level of detail in the plan - fell out with the AT as I felt she was talking the p!$$ charging me for things that I would have expected her to have on the plans - like charging me to add dimensions to her plans so I could see what size rooms where.

 

 

 

Any reason why you want to split and register before sale..??

 

You can file a TP1 with a partial transfer as part of the sale - its easily done and you pay the solicitor once. All searches will be done by the vendor on the full plot, just make sure you agree up front the actual boundary and draw the "T" on the correct side to indicate who actually owns each boundary.

 

Mine includes this  if it helps:

 

2  (26.08.2015)  Charges Register contains the following provision:-

 

"IT IS HEREBY AGREED AND DECLARED as follows:-

(a) nothing herein contained shall operate to impose any restrictions whatsoever on the manner in which the Transferor or his successors in title may deal with the retained land

(b) that all drains sewers pipes and cables now used and enjoyed or intended to be used and enjoyed or hereafter laid or constructed within the Perpetuity Period by the Transferor or the Transferee for the purpose of being used and enjoyed in common with the users and occupiers for the time being of the Property and of the retained land shall be so used and enjoyed upon the terms and conditions so far as regards any such user and enjoyment by the Transferee or any person deriving title under the Transferee that the Transferee or his successors in title shall bear and pay a fair and proportionate part according to the extent of such user and enjoyment of all costs and expenses which shall at any time or times be incurred for the repair or maintenance thereof."

 

3 (26.08.2015) The land edged and numbered in green on the title plan has been removed from this title and registered under the title number or numbers shown in green on the said plan.

4 (26.08.2015) The land has the benefit of any legal easements reserved by a Transfer of the land edged and numbered NT123456 in green on the title plan dated 21 August 2015 made between (1) John Doe and Mary Doe and (2) Michael John Smith but is subject to any rights that are granted by the said deed and affect the registered land.

Hop

[TerryE]

2 hours ago, Declan52 said:

Not sure why you tagged me in this Terry

Declan52 CalvininMiddle -- total mindfart! Didn't your Gran get like this?

[TerryE]

4 hours ago, PeterW said:

Any reason why you want to split and register before sale..??

 

Quite a few actually:

• It can take months to get a plot registered with the LA and get a street number formally allocated and ripple around the service databases.  if you don't start this process until you've agreed a sale and are on the way to exchanging contracts, then you might be living in a plot that some or none of the services know about.
• If you haven't split the plot then as far as the DNO etc are concerned you are trying to add second connections to an existing plot. With the plot split, you are adding connections to a new build on its own plot.
• Financial.  You will almost certainly want to have a mortgage on one or the other: a remortgage on the old build or a self-build mortgage on the new.  The mortgage company will normally want to record their interest in the relevant dwelling in its LRO title.  Having both dwellings on the one title complicates this and could give the mortgage company claims on the second dwelling in the case of a default on the first.  Splitting titles keeps this all clean,
• Insurance. Similar argument.  The new build needs a standard self-build insurance before final certification, the old house standard house insurance: keep them separate.
• If your plot is unregistered, then the process of getting it registered can reveal boundary disputes that can take a long time to resolve.  Get this all out of the way before you even want to put the property on the market, otherwise you've lost your negotiating position with your neighbours.
• Simplifying the sale.  Many buyers will want to use a fixed price sell and buy package from a solicitor.  Messy conveyances which include a split off of land will surely fall outside the scope of such standard fixed price packages, so you might find yourself losing the buyer that you wanted over what is a pretty trivial reason.

They are the ones off the top of my head  

[Temp]

I'm getting to the stage where I will need to split my plot as I have accepted an offer on the old house and new house was built in the back garden.

 

Are you or have you been living in the old house? I don't think splitting the plot before sale makes any difference to the tax position because you have already built the house which has had tax implications... 

 

Opinions seem to vary but it looks if you sell part of your garden (without a house) then you might be liable for CGT unless this is covered by the Principle Private Residence Relief. In that case splitting off the land before sale might mean you loose the PPR.

 

On the other hand once you start building a house in your garden the start of work is treated as a point of sale and then I think any profit from building the house is treated as a "trading profit". Different web sites say this could make any gains liable for income tax, CGT or corporation tax so professional advice is needed.

 

 

 

 

 

[Ferdinand]

The other factor is liability, which is perhaps less important for a single plot.

 

We sold our field to a developer, and put it in a limited company even before we applied for planning.

 

That was for tax management, but also to minimise the risk of legal comeback. The company is now liquidated.

 

Ferdinand

Edited February 1, 2017 by Ferdinand