Communicating with trades. Any tips?

[flanagaj]

I appreciate that this might sound lift a daft question, but how do people go about communicating with trades to ensure the task is completed satisfactory and to LABC warranty standards, without sounding like you are insulting their intelligence or micromanaging?

 

As you know, we have had two brickies and both were shit.  They cut corners and didn't take pride in their work.  For instance, the last guy had never laid Marmox blocks.  His response like many (incorrect of course) was to say "that's what the insulation upstand is for".  Needles to say, they were fitted with large air gaps at the joints ...

 

It's difficult managing these people yourself, as they see you as someone not in the trade and therefore assume you know nothing and that their 20 years in the business makes them an expert.

 

Our new bricklayers start Tuesday and I want it to work.  I should not have to go out and see that the 3 courses of brickwork on the internals has been simply butted up to the 3 course that run perpendicular without either being bonded or tied in ..

 

Any pointers welcomed on the best approach.  I can completely see how a Clerk of Works is helpful here.

[ToughButterCup]

1 hour ago, flanagaj said:

I appreciate that this might sound lift a daft question, but how do people go about communicating with trades to ensure the task is completed satisfactory and to LABC warranty standards, without sounding like you are insulting their intelligence or micromanaging?

...

 

Your question is fundamental. It goes to the heart of the horror that self-building can become. And is the main cause of self-build-sleep-deprivation-syndrome

 

Humility, respect, time, trust, effort, plain speaking. And knowledge of their (the trade's) networks

 

Self builders are - to the trades we deal with - mostly one off customers. And because we self builders have to invest so much more time , emotion and 'fizz'  into our builds than those who 'simply' sign a cheque, many self builders ( not all)  think we're special. 

 

To trades people, we aren't.

 

We're one of many jobs they have on the go at any one time. 

 

Either

• invest in someone who can manage the situation for you or
• take the time to understand the trades networks so you can break through their communication blocks and
• accept that substandard work does occur and that some work will have to be remedied
• but most of all - be lucky
• DIY
• know when an error is something you just have to accept - and when not.

 

After more than 10 years at it, I'm only just getting to know like and trust a core of people who communicate well, do what they say they will do, when they say they will do it to an acceptable standard.   

 

10 years to many people is just too long.

 

[SteamyTea]

When I was forced to teach the younger students I found that giving them loads of small, achievable tasks kept them busy and improved classroom behaviour. 

With the older students, once they were broken in, more self learning could be introduced, this gave more opportunity to deal with the ones that were struggling.

 

Project management is the same.

Set simple tasks achievable tasks that you have the skills to check, find out who does as needed, and give them a bigger job next.

The ones that struggle with the simple stuff need guidance, maybe from one of the better workers, before they can move on to bigger jobs.

 

Project management generally has (expletive deleted) all to do with technical abilities, more to do with people interacting.

 

I also use a simple metric when assessing trades (generally was for maintenance work).

If their van has non standard wheels fitted i.e. larger alloys with lower profile tyres, I find they tend to rush a job. They usually drive like (expletive deleted), and park inconsiderately, as well.

[saveasteading]

3 hours ago, flanagaj said:

without sounding like you are insulting their intelligence 

Before they start  check they have the drawing. Ask them if there are any issues arising. That is their moment to explain that they disagree or agree to build it as designed.

Then you have an agreement and they work to it, or you don't and you have to manage the situation.

You'll often find that they haven't got the drawing, or that your workers are not the one you agreed the job with.

[Redbeard]

Perhaps explain briefly what a rough experience you have had before, and invite communication right from the start in the case of any doubt whatsoever. Not so easy, I appreciate, if you are not on site, but can they get you at short notice on your mobile to clarify any uncertainties, for example?

 

Absolutely agree with @saveasteading re a dwg. Am I, however, right in remembering that you have only general, not detailed dwgs? Even an agreed scribbled (annotated with dims where applicable if not to scale)sketch can be invaluable in lieu of a detailed dwg, as long as the context is clear and understood.

[Oz07]

6 hours ago, flanagaj said:

I appreciate that this might sound lift a daft question, but how do people go about communicating with trades to ensure the task is completed satisfactory and to LABC warranty standards, without sounding like you are insulting their intelligence or micromanaging?

 

As you know, we have had two brickies and both were shit.  They cut corners and didn't take pride in their work.  For instance, the last guy had never laid Marmox blocks.  His response like many (incorrect of course) was to say "that's what the insulation upstand is for".  Needles to say, they were fitted with large air gaps at the joints ...

 

It's difficult managing these people yourself, as they see you as someone not in the trade and therefore assume you know nothing and that their 20 years in the business makes them an expert.

 

Our new bricklayers start Tuesday and I want it to work.  I should not have to go out and see that the 3 courses of brickwork on the internals has been simply butted up to the 3 course that run perpendicular without either being bonded or tied in ..

 

Any pointers welcomed on the best approach.  I can completely see how a Clerk of Works is helpful here.

Tbf I think it would be quite common finding brickies who've never touched marmox. Its uncommon. 

[Oz07]

3 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

When I was forced to teach the younger students I found that giving them loads of small, achievable tasks kept them busy and improved classroom behaviour. 

With the older students, once they were broken in, more self learning could be introduced, this gave more opportunity to deal with the ones that were struggling.

 

Project management is the same.

Set simple tasks achievable tasks that you have the skills to check, find out who does as needed, and give them a bigger job next.

The ones that struggle with the simple stuff need guidance, maybe from one of the better workers, before they can move on to bigger jobs.

 

Project management generally has (expletive deleted) all to do with technical abilities, more to do with people interacting.

 

I also use a simple metric when assessing trades (generally was for maintenance work).

If their van has non standard wheels fitted i.e. larger alloys with lower profile tyres, I find they tend to rush a job. They usually drive like (expletive deleted), and park inconsiderately, as well.

A more reliable indicator with vans is to look in the back see how all their tools are kept. Neat or messy. I've never met a neat worker who has a messy van and tools. Maybe they exist but ive not met them. 

[SteamyTea]

25 minutes ago, Oz07 said:

A more reliable indicator with vans is to look in the back see how all their tools are kept

You only find that out after they have started, or spun a good yarn.

[saveasteading]

2 hours ago, Redbeard said:

Even an agreed scribbled sketch can be invaluable 

Get them to sketch it or describe it enough for you to draw up. To scale ad with dims.

I'm afraid for you if you don't have drawings. It can work but there's a lot of risk.

[Alan Ambrose]

For a set task by any trade, I am increasingly asking myself ‘what can go wrong here’ and ‘what is most important to get right’. It’s amazing how you can often predict what the f. ups will be in advance. Then make sure you’re around for that part and be firm and unapologetic. A good trade will like that you’re double checking. Listen to all the ‘we normally do it this way’ lines, decide whether you agree and, if not, explain politely why you want it done.a different way. Check in with your trades a lot at first, then less as you trust them.

[flanagaj]

I have full drawings and our new structural engineer is just finalising the drawings for expansion joints and reinforcement, lintels and the associated installation details.  For me though, it's more about when to let something slide and when to flag it as an issue.  We live on site and as a result I will be out scrutinising the work each evening.  For instance.  How square should a door opening be? +-5mm, +-15mm ..   Same goes for levels.

 

I think I was unlucky with the last idiot.  Massive ego due to being a bricklayer Instagram poster, who during the final tirade. told my wife and I that he was the best fxxxing bricklayer in Britain and I won't find better 😮‍💨.