what is the requirement for pipe insulation in inside a house

[scottishjohn]

my problem is a strange one

 

my cold water is not cold 

I,m on a bore hole and water comes  to plant room into an accumulator where pressure is kept at 3.75 bar 

 

it then goes through filters + uv etc

 

the water pipe then goes up into the space between the  upper floor and the ceiling

 

the result is my cold water is never cold

 

I checked the ASHP pipes with a heat gun and can see a heat bloom from the ceiling 

 

 but even now when the low heat is  not much  to heat the hot water it is still a problem 

 

my question what insulation by  law  if any should have been done to the pipes in that area

 

are there laws about insulating pipes inside the house

 

 

[JohnMo]

Different bits need different strategies depending on what it is. DHW piping should be insulated, it adds unwanted heat in the summer to house. You may also suffer heat loss at cylinder, think the 2m around cylinder are supposed to insulated anyway.

 

CH piping if you are running WC most parts of the house are going to be a similar temp including voids so any heat gains are fine. If you are running cooling you may need to insulate anyway.

 

Cold water wants to stay cold so you may need to insulate depends on routing. I have the bore hole kit outside in an insulated shed, so stays pretty cool. Pipes in-house are mostly in concrete below my floor insulation, only bit not is encased in roof insulation on its way to hot water cylinder.

 

If your cold pipes are in the void between floors your cold water is likely to be 20 to 21 degs most the time. Insulate to death.

[Nickfromwales]

Cold mains “potable” or “wholesome” water needs protecting to prevent it being early to mid 20 degrees.

 

It’s a major health and safety risk due to legionaries disease etc.

 

Any volume of stored potable mains will inevitably acclimatise to the immediate local ambient temp, so this is a thing you can’t avoid, it can only be slowed by insulating the pipe as well as is practicable.

 

If the temp of the plant room housing the accumulator can be insulated then this will pay huge dividends, plus the accumulator itself should be insulated also to maximise the time taken for the local ambient to affect it.

 

What is the temp at the accumulator location?
 

Length of pipe feeding the house? 

[scottishjohn]

neither of you addressed the question 

I take it from that  there are no regulations  about insulation of pipes inside house

[scottishjohn]

temp of accumulator and filters etc in plant room   today with thermal temp gun   24c

 

when i ran the tap in the kitchen  it started off at 23 c then after 1min of running it went up to 30c  then eventually it went down  to 18c  and i also checked where it comes in the house from the borehole--same temp

 

I do have a UV on the system would that not protect from legonella ?

[scottishjohn]

I think insulation is part of my problem  --too much 

 

and the batteries +invertor for the solar are in there == 

 

plus washing machine and condensing dryer

 

may be i need some positive ventilation in there?

 

vent at bottom of wall and one at ceiling level 

 

 but that would not stop it getting hot in the space between floors

 

I suspect they did not insulate the SHP pipes to the controller and tank which is upstairs in center of house

 

 house is 22m long  

 granite with TF built inside it 

[scottishjohn]

12 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

Length of pipe feeding the house?

comes from a bore hole 30m up the hill behind --120m deep in solid rock all the way 

[Nickfromwales]

31 minutes ago, scottishjohn said:

comes from a bore hole 30m up the hill behind --120m deep in solid rock all the way 

Ok. Plenty cold enough from source then. Where does this pipe first appear above ground? 

[scottishjohn]

10 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Ok. Plenty cold enough from source then. Where does this pipe first appear above ground? 

in the plant room

 

picture attached

[Nickfromwales]

All that should be heavily insulated. It’s basically stagnating and then warming up to ambient. 

[scottishjohn]

2 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

All that should be heavily insulated. It’s basically stagnating and then warming up to ambient. 

I agree -- but i think there is another problem in the ceiling

 

other wise why would water start at 24 00then go to 30 and then back down

 

must be heating of uninsulated pipes in the ceiling void  I think

well told the builder and the only way to get at them is to drop ceiling  as upstairs has stuck down floor +ufh  heating as well

 

If he won,t do it then I go  to building control  --as he should not have fitted all those pipes in same void with no insulation   or HSE as it clearly sates cold water should be less than 20c

I really did not want to do this --but needs must 

 

so insulate pipes in plant room 

 

fit 2 vents one at ceiling level one at floor and get some convection  of the warm air happening in the plant room and out outside 

 

 unless you have a better suggestion

 

just shows houses built to new insulation stds can have other problems you don,t initally   think of 

 

certainly if it was mains coming up through the concrete slab in kitchen --as normal  and not shifting it across the ceiling space maybe 8ms from plant room with an accumulator storing it 

Edited 5 hours ago by scottishjohn

[Oz07]

5 hours ago, scottishjohn said:

neither of you addressed the question 

I take it from that  there are no regulations  about insulation of pipes inside house

I don't think there are any regs for insulating cold water pipes in domestic dwelling. I've certainly seen plenty of un insulated pipes in my time. 

 

Are you looking to claim from the plumber? I don't think they problem is avoidable if you have a tank in the house at room temperature regardless what you do with the pipes.

[Oz07]

4 hours ago, scottishjohn said:

I think insulation is part of my problem  --too much 

 

and the batteries +invertor for the solar are in there == 

 

plus washing machine and condensing dryer

 

may be i need some positive ventilation in there?

 

vent at bottom of wall and one at ceiling level 

 

 but that would not stop it getting hot in the space between floors

 

I suspect they did not insulate the SHP pipes to the controller and tank which is upstairs in center of house

 

 house is 22m long  

 granite with TF built inside it 

Would it be possible to cool the accumulator in any way?

[-rick-]

Not a plumber but I suspect there are water quality/plumbing standards that require water to be kept below a certain temperature. Not necessarily specifying how that is achieved.

[JohnMo]

3 hours ago, scottishjohn said:

upstairs has stuck down floor +ufh  heating as well

The second floor UFH will ensure the come water get warm in winter also